# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/882 "2024-02-06T18:08:38Z")
To clarify, based on your own words: > [@Riemann](#): > > “a Black person should be getting this specific award” > [@Riemann](#): > > Beyoncé not winning best album, the specific major award that Swift was up for, and getting a record 4th win for > [@Riemann](#): > > Well, that and the fact that he said Beyonce should be getting the award that she would shortly be getting You’ve stated specifically and repeatedly that Jay-Z wanted Beyoncé to win the 2024 Grammy for Best Album. I’ll repeat, he never said that. If you could provide where Jay-Z said anything like that, I’d appreciate it. His words on the matter: > I don’t want to embarrass this young lady, but she has more Grammys than anyone and never won album of the year. So even by your own metrics, that doesn’t work. Think about that, most Grammys, never won album of the year. That doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/883 "2024-02-06T18:12:42Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > You’ve stated specifically and repeatedly that Jay-Z wanted Beyoncé to win the 2024 Grammy for Best Album. I have not, his beef about a specific award obviously didn’t imply this year, but it doesn’t stop it being a sideswipe at a non-Black person who is just about to get that specific award this year on the stage you’re standing on. If you’re going to quote a bunch of my posts, maybe you should have paid a bit more attention to the _first_ post I made, which was really a fairly mild observation. You’re the one who seems to be unduly upset by this. My first post: > [@Riemann](#): > > I guess it was somewhat abstracted since Beyoncé wasn’t in the running this year, but it still seems pretty tone deaf, given the high probability that Swift could win. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/884 "2024-02-06T18:14:34Z")
I just listened to Jay-Z’s speech, and I don’t feel any attack at Swift. He has a lengthy acceptance speech about the Grammy’s checkered history of shortchanging Black artists, and of course one example on his mind involves Beyonce. One can take it as a stab at Swift because she is up to win her fourth while B hasn’t won one yet despite having won lots of other Grammys, or because one time a Swift album won over a Beyonce album, but that’s projecting IMO. I’m not about to rate the merits or impact of any specific albums and who deserved what when. I think it’s a valid point that Beyonce has the most Grammy wins, but not an AotY. Statistically, that seems off. No slam to Swift, who just made history. But I think this whole subtopic demonstrates a certain element of the Taylor Swift phenomenon - and Fandom in general. “How can this not be about Taylor?” ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/885 "2024-02-06T18:19:54Z")
So saying maybe she should have won last year or a couple other years is a swipe at Taylor Swift? I truly don’t understand that thought process from anyone but a rabid Swiftie. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/886 "2024-02-06T18:28:50Z")
I _think_ the connection is [Swift made history for her 4th album of the year Grammy](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taylor-swift-2024-grammy-awards-fourth-album-of-the-year-win/) while Beyonce has none. Note: I have no dog in this race. I am not a fan of either of them (I don’t hate them…I just don’t listen to their music). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/887 "2024-02-06T18:30:45Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I just listened to Jay-Z’s speech, and I don’t feel any attack at Swift. And nor do I. That’s @Chisquirrel 's straw man. My opinion is that the specificity and location/timing of his comments on the Grammy stage just before the award was tone deaf. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/888 "2024-02-06T18:36:47Z")
Not an attack, just a disrespectful sideswipe. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/889 "2024-02-06T18:43:15Z")
Can we be done with this tangent? I just went back to the beginning of it and don’t read any of what you’re claiming Riemann said. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/890 "2024-02-06T19:19:17Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I only watched the clips afterwards, but the thing that stuck out to me as cringeworthy and disrespectful to other artists was Jay-Z mumbling on (during his earlier award acceptance speech) about how Beyoncé should win best album. > > I guess it was somewhat abstracted since Beyoncé wasn’t in the running this year, but it still seems pretty tone deaf, given the high probability that Swift could win. Does it… remind you of anything? > > I think if I were Beyoncé I’d be a little tired of jackasses (even if one of them is my husband) making fools of themselves trying to white knight for me. Strange take. Just about all the black folks I saw on social media were applauding Jay-Z and proud that he said it. Hell, many of them had been saying it for years - how does Beyonce have the most Grammys but not AOTY? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/891 "2024-02-06T20:37:49Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Beyonce have the most Grammys but not AOTY? How did Nolan Ryan have the most strikeouts, no hitters, one hitters, two hitters, and give up the fewest hits per inning of any starting pitcher ever without winning a single Cy Young award? Sometimes it just works out that way. It’s only unfair if she should have won AOTY for a particular album and a lesser album won instead. If that happened, Jay-Z should say that, instead of implying that she is being discriminated against _while winning the most Grammys of anyone ever_. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/892 "2024-02-06T21:39:05Z")
I thought Jay-Z was being an ass, just like Kanye. There are a lot of movies I thought should have won an Academy Award for Best Picture that didn’t end up with one, and it tends to be because they came out in a year where they faced still competition from other movies. Beyonce doesn’t deserve awards just because Taylor has them as well. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/893 "2024-02-06T21:45:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s only unfair if she should have won AOTY for a particular album and a lesser album won instead. If that happened, Jay-Z should say that, instead of implying that she is being discriminated against _while winning the most Grammys of anyone ever_. If you only get the minor awards while being passed up for the major ones, there may be some sort of issue… and it’s been noticed that a lot of black artists lose out on those awards (only 3 black women have ever won Album of the Year). He’s not exactly saying something new. It just hit a new level when Renaissance lost out to Harry Styles last year. #GrammysSoWhite wasn’t all that long ago either. For example: [Jay-Z’s Grammys speech about Beyoncé reiterates an ongoing issue with the awards (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-ph/music/news/jay-z-s-grammys-speech-about-beyonc%C3%A9-reiterates-an-ongoing-issue-with-the-awards/ar-BB1hQQ7Q) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/894 "2024-02-06T23:37:44Z")
The Grammy awards have always been a popularity contest, so it seemed a little odd when Beyonce lost out to Beck in 2014. I’ve listened to Morning Phase; it’s a good album. It’s by no means a great album. It won because it was the only ‘rock’ album in the competition. A lot of the Grammy dinosaurs would vote for any rock album over the likes of Beyonce, Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith and Pharrell. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/895 "2024-02-06T23:57:17Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And nor do I. That’s @Chisquirrel 's straw man. My opinion is that the specificity and location/timing of his comments on the Grammy stage just before the award was tone deaf. The specificity and timing was his receiving a prestigious award and having his moment on the stage to give a speech. He chose to make it about his the Grammys still aren’t “getting it right”. The only thing tone deaf is that Swifties gonna Swift. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s only unfair if she should have won AOTY for a particular album and a lesser album won instead. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > If you only get the minor awards while being passed up for the major ones, there may be some sort of issue… This. Bias can take many forms. It can be overt not including nominations, or it can be subtle, where certain kinds of artists rarely win specific awards. The thing with awards like this is they are subjective, so it’s hard to have evidence that every time he album was up it was beat by a more deserving album. > [@BlankSlate](#): > > The Grammy awards have always been a popularity contest, .[snip] > A lot of the Grammy dinosaurs would vote for any rock album over the likes of Beyonce, Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith and Pharrell. This. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/896 "2024-02-06T23:59:35Z")
Are we writing more about a Grammys speech that wasn’t even really about her, or about the awards thenselves, in the Swift thread than in the Grammys thread? _That_ is the power of the Taylor Swift phenomenon. Just like the Super Bowl, anything she’s involved in or even just adjacent to, becomes about her. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/897 "2024-02-07T00:29:35Z")
I love Taylor Swift. I think she’s a phenom, a superstar. She writes catchy songs, and is very business savvy. The more I learn about her, the more I like her. I’m highly amused that Trump has made her a target for one of his tantrums, and has the MAGAverse all spun up in ridiculous conspiracy theories. And I love the irony that all those CTs are doing more to defeat themselves than any organic politicking by Swift would. I also find it pretty ridiculous that football fans are having a backlash against Swift for the media attention given to her at games, when it’s not like her people are controlling the cameras, and as if celebrities aren’t always given attention when they attend. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/898 "2024-02-07T13:37:41Z")
Never winning Album of the Year puts Beyoncé in exalted company that includes David Bowie, Prince, Queen, Bruce Springsteen, the Rolling Stones, Aretha Franklin and many others. That’s a group of people I’d be honored to be a member of. The Grammys are nice, but they’re not _important_, and they’re definitely not worth whining about. You can be in it for the music, and you can be in it for the money, but if you’re in it for the awards, well, that’s just sad. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/899 "2024-02-07T13:46:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s a group of people I’d be honored to be a member of. You _are_ a member of that group, unless you’re secretly John Lennon and faked your own death so you could post anonymously on an internet message board or something. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/900 "2024-02-07T13:54:58Z")
The Wall St. Journal has a story today debunking conspiracy theories regarding Travis Kelce, Taylor Swift and the Super Bowl. [https://www.wsj.com/us-news/taylor-swift-travis-kelce-super-bowl-false-conspiracy-theories-d3d21321?mod=hp\_lead\_pos11](https://www.wsj.com/us-news/taylor-swift-travis-kelce-super-bowl-false-conspiracy-theories-d3d21321?mod=hp_lead_pos11) A sizable percentage of comments are from people irritated that the WSJ published this debunking, either because it makes their readers look bad or because those readers think the WSJ has joined the amorphous They who Don’t Want You To Know. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/901 "2024-02-08T04:30:28Z")
The Eras Tour movie will be available on Disney+ starting next month. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/07/business/taylor-swifts-eras-tour-disney/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/07/business/taylor-swifts-eras-tour-disney/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=46)