# Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180 "2012-09-28T20:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/201 "2012-10-22T21:15:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hrmm. I keep getting the impression that there is a deal to be made if Israel was willing to grant citizenship and pay restitution. If that isn’t true then it really changes a lot of my underlying assumptions. Do you have a cite that these two things would not be enough (in concert with 1967 borders) to satisfy the Palestinians? > [@](#): > > If you included the population of the West Bank and the Gaza strip in Israel, I don’t think Israeli politics would move towards a theocracy as quickly as it will with a growing orthodox population. The secular Jews might become the swing vote and the only people that anyone listens to. Israel is not “moving towards a theocracy”. Sure, the ultra-Orthodox are annoying, but they are not going to be imposing a “theocracy” any time soon. The people in the WB and Gaza have no interest in becoming Israelis. > [@](#): > > I could agree with that. Kind of like Pakistan and Bangladesh. > > ? ☹ ? Can’t find it. See post # 145 upthread (in a response to you). Relocation of refugees to Canada was mooted as a possibility, quickly disavowed in part due to universal negative reaction from Palestinian supporters, who feared that allowing the refugees an out to Canada would undermine the “right of return”. [http://list2.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0101c&L=fofognet&T=0&F=&S=&P=592](http://list2.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0101c&L=fofognet&T=0&F=&S=&P=592) > [@](#): > > The National Council on Canada Arab Relations welcomed Canada’s offer > to help, but cautioned against undermining UN Resolution 194 which > provides the refugees with the right to return to their homes." > “The NCCAR applauds Canada’s reaffirmation of her commitment to keep > the doors open to those who suffer oppression and dispossession,” the > lobby group said in a statement > “It is another tribute to Canada’s long history of welcoming refugees > seeking freedom and human security.” > The organization called on Manley to ensure that Canada’s offer “does > not conflict” with the Palestinians’ “right to choose to return to > the land from which they were evicted or left against their will.” > That right of return was paramount, said Monzer Zimmo, a Palestinian > Canadian who has lived here for more than 20 years. > "Canada can make the offer to both Palestinians and Israelis. It can > say “our doors are open to anyone who wants to come here,” he said. > “It can make the offer so long as it is made to an individual. Then > the choice whether to accept or not is an individual one. This > doesn’t relate to solving the conflict in the region.” > Zimmo, a financial consultant who is the president of the Canaanite > Canadian Knowledge Center, which promotes learning and enlightenment > in Palestine, stressed that “under no circumstances,” should Canada’s > > - or any other position - interfere with the right of return, which > is stipulated in United Nations Resolution 194. > “Canada was a signatory to it and the resolution has been reaffirmed > and reaffirmed since it was issued on Dec. 11, 1948,” he said. > Both Zimmo and the National Council insist that it is Israel which > must bear the responsibility for the refugees. > “As Canadians we’re interested in making sure that Canada does not > carry Israel’s burden and responsibility toward the Palestinians. The > Israelis must shoulder alone the basic responsibility for > repatriating and compensating their victims,” the council said in a > statement. > Zimmo agreed. > “The bottom line is that somebody committed a crime and somebody else > was the victim. Palestinians either fled or were forced out of their > homes by Zionist aggression,” he said. > “That crime cannot be forgotten. The criminal must be punished. It’s > not up to Canada to pay the price.” > [@](#): > > Your time frame coincides with zionism. Funny that. Huh? Zionism is a form of nationalism. What’s “funny” about that? Note that the time-frame _also_ coincides with the near-simultaneous growth of Arab nationalism. Hence the current problems. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/202 "2012-10-23T05:06:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The people in the WB and Gaza have no interest in becoming Israelis. > … > > Hence the current problems. The problem I have with the way you frame the issue is that you seem to be saying that no solution exists. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/203 "2012-10-23T07:31:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem I have …is that you seem to be saying that no solution exists. Unfortunately, he _is_ right. No solution exists. It is very difficult for intelligent, rational people to accept the idea that intelligent , rational discussion are not enough to solve a problem. But the simple fact is that when you are dealing with people whose mindset is totally foreign to yours, then some problems will remain un-solvable. (proud Godwin alert: ) I think you’ll agree that WWII was unsolvable. Chaimberlain tried it the intelligent,rational way. Or, if you’re rolling your eyes at me, let’s look at a non-Godwinized problem: The Berlin Wall. That was, like the Palestinian issue, an unsolvable problem…as long as the mindset of the Communists was simply to deny all human rights and shoot on sight , there was no way to unite Germany. The only solution was a total and complete surrender by one side, which then agreed to let itslelf disappear into the dustbin of history. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/204 "2012-10-23T13:50:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem I have with the way you frame the issue is that you seem to be saying that no solution exists. Not at all. I think some form of a two (or three-) -state solution is viable, even very likely. It will not, however, “solve” all problems. The problems will keep chugging along, new ones all the time, because the region is rife with fault-lines and always has been. The mistake people make is the sort of all-or-nothing thinking that presupposes that some kind of “solution” exists. The “solution” is really a question of crisis management - to take the facts as they are and do what can be done to minimize the human damage. Reading about the history of the ME in the times immediately predating Islam is instructive. It is remarkably similar in some ways to the world of today. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/205 "2012-10-23T14:02:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Reading about the history of the ME in the times immediately predating Islam is instructive. It is remarkably similar in some ways to the world of today. Hmm, hmm. The Bulgarians own half the Balkans, Constantinople is barely hanging on there but Greece, Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and North Africa are all well under East-Roman control. And Christian of course. Persia still has Iraq , transoxania is quiet. Both parties are weary of war. A long period of peace with well established borders awaits us all. Happy times. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/206 "2012-10-23T14:40:50Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Hmm, hmm. The Bulgarians own half the Balkans, Constantinople is barely hanging on there but Greece, Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and North Africa are all well under East-Roman control. And Christian of course. > > Persia still has Iraq , transoxania is quiet. > > Both parties are weary of war. A long period of peace with well established borders awaits us all. Happy times. “In some ways”. Not in detail. 😃 In particular, that the area was divided into spheres of influence between two great powers who had ceased to fight each other directly, but who still meddled in the affairs of their “clients” - who in turn had ambitions of their own. plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/207 "2012-10-23T15:03:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “In some ways”. Not in detail. 😃 > > In particular, that the area was divided into spheres of influence between two great powers who had ceased to fight each other directly, but who still meddled in the affairs of their “clients” - who in turn had ambitions of their own. > > plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. My post was rather meant as tongue in cheek, as I supposed you were going somewhere else with your argument. Apparently you are not. Those were not “spheres of influence”, those were actual parts/provinces of their empires. Maybe you could classify Palmyra, Dura Europos and Armenia as border-territory, but Iraq was absolutely Persian. Nothing client about it. So were Palestine, Syria, North-Africa and Anatolia absolutely Roman provinces and Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/208 "2012-10-23T15:16:27Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > My post was rather meant as tongue in cheek, as I supposed you were going somewhere else with your argument. > > Apparently you are not. > > Those were not “spheres of influence”, those were actual parts/provinces of their empires. > Maybe you could classify Palmyra, Dura Europos and Armenia as border-territory, but Iraq was absolutely Persian. Nothing client about it. > So were Palestine, Syria, North-Africa and Anatolia absolutely Roman provinces and Christian. Meh. It is perfectly true that the empires owned bits of the ME. I never claimed the parallel was in any way exact. I was thinking in particular of the conflicts between the Persian Empire and the romans/Byzantines over the trade-routes running through the Arabian penninsula, and the extention (and relaxation) of influence over client states such as Ghassan and Hira. It is somewhat similar in tone to the later period, when the commodity big empires wanted out of that part of the ME was oil, not trade with India and China. I know full well what the Byzantine and Persian Empires were, and that they owned bits of the ME. You are being too literal about an off-hand comment. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/209 "2012-10-23T15:31:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You are being too literal about an off-hand comment. Well, all right. It’s just that it was nothing like _la même chose_, just before the eruption of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/210 "2012-10-23T15:43:37Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, all right. > It’s just that it was nothing like _la même chose_, just before the eruption of Islam. If the Iranians achive their ambitions, it will be the Sassanids all over again.\* 😃 \*Yes I know, I know, the current Iranians aren’t Zoroastrian. 😉 But more seriously - the larger point is that this sort of turmoil and foreign interference/occupation of turbulent states isn’t anything new to the area. Except for the times when the ME was dominated completely by great empires, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=10)