# Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180 "2012-09-28T20:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/41 "2012-09-30T03:12:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return) Like I said, the number of Palestinians expelled was around 700,000 during the Naqba. Palestinians weren’t ethnically cleansed from the West Bank following the 1967 War. The only way your figure makes sense is if you start including all the descendants of the Palestinians expelled during the Naqba. However if you do that, to be intellectually consistent you’d have to start counting all the descendants of the Jews expelled from Muslim lands which would meant that there are millions of “Jewish refugees” which we all know is ludicrous. Anyway, the children of refugees, unless one wants to create special rules for the Palestinians aren’t classified as refugees. Nobody says that Iranian-Americans born in Beverly Hills or Cuban-Americans born in Miami are refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/42 "2012-09-30T03:17:10Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Before they were flooded with illegal immigrants after WWI, Palestinians generally treated Jews well — certainly better than most European countries. What “illegal immigrants” following WWI. Most of the Jews who came in there did with the permission of the governing body. Beyond that, it’s silly to refer to the Arabs of that time period as “Palestinians” because they didn’t view themselves that way and would have taken such a term as an insult. Moreover, claiming that Jews in the Muslim Middle East were treated “well” is utterly asinine. Are you not familiar with the various Dhimmi laws? No, they weren’t treated as badly as say Blacks under Apartheid, but they were certainly treated as second class citizens and neither they, nor the Christians of the Middle East happy with the way they were treated. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/43 "2012-09-30T03:22:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Like I said, the number of Palestinians expelled was around 700,000 during the Naqba. > > Palestinians weren’t ethnically cleansed from the West Bank following the 1967 War. So? They still lost their homes. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The only way your figure makes sense is if you start including all the descendants of the Palestinians expelled during the Naqba. Huh? 700-800k + 100-200k is about 1 million. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/44 "2012-09-30T03:25:59Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But I don’t see why it should have anything to do with Palestinians. Before they were flooded with illegal immigrants after WWI, Palestinians generally treated Jews well — certainly better than most European countries. Flood of _illegal_ immigrants is putting a spin on the [documented](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Jewish_immigration) facts: > [@](#): > > During the Mandate, the Yishuv or Jewish community in Palestine, grew from one-sixth to almost one-third of the population. According to official records, 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945.[sup][[68](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#cite_note-67)][/sup] It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a marginal number of Arabs, mostly on seasonal circumstances, immigrated illegally during this period.[sup][[69](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#cite_note-68)][/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/45 "2012-09-30T03:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **Treis** > Quote: > Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq > The only way your figure makes sense is if you start including all the descendants of the Palestinians expelled during the Naqba. > Huh? 700-800k + 100-200k is about 1 million. Er… it was only 700 possibly 800,000 expelled during the Naqba. There was no ethnic cleansing following the 1967 War and the people you’re trying to claim as the “100-200k” were never listed as refugees. Now, since you care so much about the Palestinian people, perhaps you can do us all a favor and link to some posts where you viciously attack the US and the UK governments for complicity in a vastly more successful ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians that occurred within the past 25 years. I’m of course talking about the expulsion of Palestinians from Kuwait in the 90s, which I assume since you care so much about the Palestinians and their plight, you’re massively upset about and have repeatedly posted your anger about it. Finally, I have to admit it is quite revealing that you have repeatedly ignored the present absentees which might actually managed to bump up the figure to a million. Would you mind telling us why you chose to ignore them? They’re quite well known and every 12-year-old in Israel and the Occupied territories is familiar with them. Or at least every 12-year-old Arab in Israel and the Occupied territories as well as anyone genuinely concerned about the Palestinians and interested in their plight. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/46 "2012-09-30T03:56:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… it was only 700 possibly 800,000 expelled during the Naqba. > > There was no ethnic cleansing following the 1967 War and the people you’re trying to claim as the “100-200k” were never listed as refugees. What in the world are you talking about? I said 1 million Palestinians lost their homes, and my cite says that 1 million Palestinians lost their homes in wars with Israel. I don’t see how you don’t see this. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, since you care so much about the Palestinian people, perhaps you can do us all a favor and link to some posts where you viciously attack the US and the UK governments for complicity in a vastly more successful ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians that occurred within the past 25 years. _Yawn_ I’ll do so right after you link to my posts where I viciously attack the US and UK for their complicity in any Palestinian ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/47 "2012-09-30T04:15:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > _Yawn_ I’ll do so right after you link to my posts where I viciously attack the US and UK for their complicity in any Palestinian ethnic cleansing. Er. Are you trying to argue that the US and the UK weren’t complicit in the ethnic cleansing of several hundred thousand Palestinians? If not, please explain your reasoning. > [@](#): > > What in the world are you talking about? I said 1 million Palestinians lost their homes, and my cite says that 1 million Palestinians lost their homes in wars with Israel. I don’t see how you don’t see this. You clearly have a dramatically different interpretation of the term “lost their homes” then most. The people you’re referring to didn’t leave their homes at gunpoint or as a results of massacres like the Jews of Morocco, Yemen or Iraq. Their situation is vastly more comparable to the Jews who left Iran between 1947 and the Iranian revolution who are generally not compared to refugees. Do you agree with such distinctions or do you think we should treat the fates of Moroccan Jews and Iranian Jews who left Iran prior to the Iranian revolution? Also, would you mind linking to some posts where you rage about the expulsion of Jews from Morocco, Yemen or Iraq? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/48 "2012-09-30T04:20:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er. Are you trying to argue that the US and the UK weren’t complicit in the ethnic cleansing of several hundred thousand Palestinians? > > If not, please explain your reasoning. I’m saying no such posts exists. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You clearly have a dramatically different interpretation of the term “lost their homes” then most. I don’t think so. Could these people go back to their homes? No? Then they lost them as far as most people are concerned. As for the rest of your post. I don’t care to debate the issue. You asked for a cite and got one. If you don’t like it, fine, I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/49 "2012-09-30T04:35:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The people you’re referring to didn’t leave their homes at gunpoint or as a results of massacres like the Jews of Morocco, Yemen or Iraq. The Wikipedia cite says far more than 100-200k fled after the Six Day War. > [@](#): > > “Altogether some 200,000-300,000 Arabs fled or were driven from the West Bank and Gaza Strip…during the war and in the weeks immediately thereafter. Another eighty to ninety thousand fled or were driven from the Golan Heights.” - Morris, Benny (2001): Righteous Victims, Vintage Books, ISBN 0-679-74475-4, page 327. So that puts the count to 300k to 400k. By using the term “fled”, Morris implies that their exodus was due to perceived duress, real or not. I don’t know what sources Morris drew upon. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/50 "2012-09-30T04:56:23Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > So that puts the count to 300k to 400k. By using the term “fled”, Morris implies that their exodus was due to perceived duress, real or not. I don’t know what sources Morris drew upon. I’ll admit to liking and often recommending Benny Morris’ _Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem_, but as a historian he often makes a better activist than historian and has a tendency to flip from one simple-minded view of the Middle East to the other and to misrepresent the evidence to support his view. [http://www.meforum.org/466/benny-morris-and-the-reign-of-error](http://www.meforum.org/466/benny-morris-and-the-reign-of-error) A couple of decades ago, he was the most hardcore of “the New Historians” blaming the the Zionist leadership for most of the troubles of the region and denouncing them for failing to support the Palestinians who wanted peace. Since then he’s flipped, now has positions that would make most neocons applaud and claims the Zionist leadership have wanted to live in peace and harmony with the Palestinians while the awful Palestinians have never given up on their dream of driving the Jews into the sea and can’t be trusted. [http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/benny-morris-on-why-he-s-written-his-last-word-on-the-israel-arab-conflict.premium-1.465869](http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/benny-morris-on-why-he-s-written-his-last-word-on-the-israel-arab-conflict.premium-1.465869) I’ll add the above wikipedia article is a prime example of why wikipedia is a really shitty source to use for information on controversial matters and that’s especially true of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Most of the time you’re just reading the victor of an edit war amongst people who have nothing better to do than to sit around trying to force their own views on wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/51 "2012-09-30T04:58:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’m saying no such posts exists. Ok, then perhaps you can tell us why you’re so upset about Israel engaging in ethnic cleansing but not so upset about the US and UK being complicit in a vastly more successful ethnic cleansing campaign? Similarly, you haven’t explained why you kept ignoring the present absentees? Would you mind explaining why you chose to ignore them? It’s a perfectly reasonable question. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/52 "2012-09-30T06:01:35Z")
If you really want to understand the contentious issues in a relatively quick but very detailed presentation you should watch the Dershowitz/Chomsky debates. Some people will only listen to the side they agree with and pan the other. This is a mistake as a lot is to be learned by both arguments. The link is in 14 parts on youtube. Total is about 80-100 mins long. Dershowitz is the most influential and prolific defender of Israel and Chomsky is the most influential and prolific critic of Israel, at least in the west. [http://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query=Chomsky+and+Dershowitz+debate+Israel+and+Palestine&oq=Chomsky+and+Dershowitz+debate+Israel+and+Palestine&gs\_l=youtube-reduced.3…0l4.60551.60551.0.62098.1.1.0.0.0.0.83.83.1.1.0…0.0…1ac.awcVuOmW\_HY](http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Chomsky+and+Dershowitz+debate+Israel+and+Palestine&oq=Chomsky+and+Dershowitz+debate+Israel+and+Palestine&gs_l=youtube-reduced.3..0l4.60551.60551.0.62098.1.1.0.0.0.0.83.83.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.awcVuOmW_HY) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/53 "2012-09-30T06:20:57Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Dershowitz is the most influential and prolific defender of Israel Oh bullshit. Where did you hear such crap? You think he’s more influential than Ellie Wiesel, Martin Peretz, or countless others? > [@](#): > > Chomsky is the most influential and prolific critic of Israel Please. Chomsky himself would be grossly embarrassed by such a suggestion. You think he’s more influential than Christopher Hitchens(admittedly Hitchens is dead), Tom Friedman and Pat Buchanan? Tell me, how many times has Chomsky come close to winning the nomination of a major party for President? He’s a guy who’s popular with a lot of college sophomores who usually outgrow him by the time they’re juniors. BTW, once again, which of Chomsky’s books have you read? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/54 "2012-09-30T06:27:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh bullshit. Where did you hear such crap? You think he’s more influential than Ellie Wiesel, Martin Peretz, or countless others? > > Please. Chomsky himself would be grossly embarrassed by such a suggestion. > > You think he’s more influential than Christopher Hitchens(admittedly Hitchens is dead), Tom Friedman and Pat Buchanan? > > Tell me, how many times has Chomsky come close to winning the nomination of a major party for President? > > He’s a guy who’s popular with a lot of college sophomores who usually outgrow him by the time they’re juniors. > > BTW, once again, which of Chomsky’s books have you read? > > Thanks In the united states Dershowitz is absolutely the most prolific defender of Israel. More people may know about Hitchens, maybe Friedman and certainly Buchanan but within the academic community these guys are not even close to being on par. Besides which Chomsky easily has reached more people with his commentary, writing and debate about Israel than the others. Not sure why you’re protesting so much but I’m used to your unreasonable attitude so I’ll just cut off paying attention to you as before. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/55 "2012-09-30T06:29:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Tell me, how many times has Chomsky come close to winning the nomination of a major party for President? How many Republicans are famous as intellectuals? But really I’m just posting to subscribe. I don’t know the answer to the OP. Lots of British literature provides clues why they hated Jews, but maybe that’s tangential. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/56 "2012-09-30T06:39:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > At the end of the war the Ottoman regime collapsed and Turkey abandoned its territories outside of Turkey itself. At first I just sort of read past this but as I read through the thread I realized that this is an extremely inaccurate statement. 1. The Ottoman Empire collapsed, the sultanate still existed and gave up all of its territory to the Allies. 2. The Turkish War of Independence was waged by Ataturk and the Turkish Nationalist Movement. They succeeded in wresting much of what is the modern Turkish Republic from the Allies at the conclusion of the war. So one entity, the Ottoman Empire, led by a figurehead Sultan and the 3 Pashas, completely disintegrated…poof! The country we know as Turkey is the nation created primarily by one group, out of many competing actors, who all shared the common goal of re-drawing the borders of the Ottoman territories to fulfill their wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/57 "2012-09-30T07:08:51Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > In the united states Dershowitz is absolutely the most prolific defender of Israel. More than Martin Peretz, Ellie Weisel, Charles Krauthammer or George Will? Please. Where did you hear such crap? Have you gotten most of your understanding of the conflict from one silly videotaped debate between Chomsky and Dershowitz? > [@](#): > > More people may know about Hitchens, maybe Friedman and certainly Buchanan but within the academic > > > [@](#): > > > > community these guys are not even close to being on par. Except when it comes to linguistics, Chomsky isn’t all that respected in academia. Lots of pseudo-intellectuals and college sophomores like him, but most university professors take a dim view of genocide deniers and apologists for Holocaust deniers as well as people who compare Jimmy Carter to Adolph Hitler and Shimon Peres to Stalin. [/QUOTE] Not sure why you’re protesting so much but I’m used to your unreasonable attitude so I’ll just cut off paying attention to you as before. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry you feel the need to resort to personal insults. I shredded your arguments but didn’t attack you do there’s no reason to attack me. Anyway, once more, which of Chomsky’s books have you read? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/58 "2012-09-30T13:06:23Z")
Thanks, **Musicat** and **carnivorousplant**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/59 "2012-09-30T13:39:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll add the above wikipedia article is a prime example of why wikipedia is a really shitty source to use for information on controversial matters and that’s especially true of the Israel-Palestine conflict. > > Most of the time you’re just reading the victor of an edit war amongst people who have nothing better to do than to sit around trying to force their own views on wikipedia. Amen, brother. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/60 "2012-09-30T14:54:01Z")
Guys, can we keep the Chomsky stuff in the other thread? > [@aldiboronti](#): > > That’s unfair. What else could Britain do in India? Leave the continent undivided and allow brutal ethnic cleansing to decide the outcome? Dividing the subcontinent _lead_ to brutal ethnic cleansing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=4)