# Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180 "2012-09-28T20:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/61 "2012-09-30T15:19:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Dividing the subcontinent _lead_ to brutal ethnic cleansing. Agreed. The British policy was not “divide and conquer” but rather “divide and leave.” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/62 "2012-09-30T21:04:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, then perhaps you can tell us why you’re so upset about Israel engaging in ethnic cleansing but not so upset about the US and UK being complicit in a vastly more successful ethnic cleansing campaign? > > Similarly, you haven’t explained why you kept ignoring the present absentees? > > Would you mind explaining why you chose to ignore them? > It’s a perfectly reasonable question. > > Thanks This thread is about Israel and Palestine. Someone contested that the peasants and many Arabs don’t have any reason to fight. All my post was doing is pointing out that this isn’t the case. If you want to discuss other ethnic cleansing campaigns, I suggest a new thread. The narrative that the Jews who immigrated to the M.E., bought up some empty land, and then were attacked by mean old Arabs is false. Israel was founded in a populated area with the plan to make the residents, who had been living there for centuries, second class citizens in their own land. The fact that those people fought against that, and other Arabs helped them doesn’t require an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/63 "2012-09-30T21:42:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Israel was founded in a populated area with the plan to make the residents, who had been living there for centuries, second class citizens in their own land. No doubt the above post will be followed by cites of its assertions. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/64 "2012-09-30T21:50:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The narrative that the Jews who immigrated to the M.E., bought up some empty land, and then were attacked by mean old Arabs is false. Israel was founded in a populated area with the plan to make the residents, who had been living there for centuries, second class citizens in their own land. The fact that those people fought against that, and other Arabs helped them doesn’t require an explanation. Other than the Jews who had been living in the ME since biblical times, thousands of Jews did buy land from the Arabs and then emigrated there. When Israel declared her state, there was no plan to make non-Jews 2d class citizens, and to this day they are not. Some Israeli Arabs old high political offices. The plan (as envisioned by the UN) was to have Israel and Palestine declare their states and live peaceably side by side. Unfortunately, the Arabs did not declare the state of Palestine for themselves, and, to this day, 65 years later still intend to destroy the state of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/65 "2012-09-30T22:22:00Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > No doubt the above post will be followed by cites of its assertions. Yes? Which particular fact do you dispute? That what became Israel was populated, that the people had roots going back a century, or that the state of Israel was to be a Jewish state? > [@barbitu8](#): > > When Israel declared her state, there was no plan to make non-Jews 2d class citizens, and to this day they are not. Of course they are. There is 0 chance the next prime minister of Israel will be Arab, the government is conducted in Hebrew, and the primary language of business is Hebrew. I don’t really see how this is in dispute. If Israel was founded as, and is, a Jewish State, almost by definition the power has to be held by Jews. The early Zionists had varying views of how the relationship between the natives and Zionist immigrants would play out, but none of them conceived of any situation other than Jews holding power in their own country. > [@barbitu8](#): > > Some Israeli Arabs old high political offices. The plan (as envisioned by the UN) was to have Israel and Palestine declare their states and live peaceably side by side. Unfortunately, the Arabs did not declare the state of Palestine for themselves, and, to this day, 65 years later still intend to destroy the state of Israel. Perhaps the British and later the UN should have asked the people living there what they wanted before letting in a few hundred thousand people bent on founding their own country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/66 "2012-10-01T00:48:39Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Other than the Jews who had been living in the ME since biblical times, thousands of Jews did buy land from the Arabs and then emigrated there. When Israel declared her state, there was no plan to make non-Jews 2d class citizens, and to this day they are not. Yes, they are. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/67 "2012-10-01T00:53:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > . . . There is 0 chance the next prime minister of Israel will be Arab, the government is conducted in Hebrew, and the primary language of business is Hebrew. I don’t really see how this is in dispute. . . . Minority citizenry is very different from “second class” citizenry. It is very unlikely that the U.S. will elect a President who speaks only Vietnamese or Spanish, and most laws in the U.S. are written in English. This does not make Vietnamese speakers in the U.S. “second class citizens.” Completely different concept. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/68 "2012-10-01T01:02:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Minority citizenry is very different from “second class” citizenry. > > It is very unlikely that the U.S. will elect a President who speaks only Vietnamese or Spanish, and most laws in the U.S. are written in English. This does not make Vietnamese speakers in the U.S. “second class citizens.” Completely different concept. True, but until very recently 97% of the land in the United States was not reserved only for whites, nor does the United States send Vietnamese and Spanish speakers to different schools, nor has the US ever required it’s citizens to have their ethnicity stamped on their IDs. Beyond that, there are tons of little ways in which Israeli Arabs are regularly discriminated against. I’d recommend reading _Sleeping on a Wire_, by the noted Israeli journalist David Grossman. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/69 "2012-10-01T01:38:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which particular fact do you dispute? That what became Israel was populated, that the people had roots going back a century, or that the state of Israel was to be a Jewish state? I dispute that the intent of the founding of Israel was intended to make any current population second-class citizens. I recognize that Israeli Arabs do not have full rights under the current Israeli government, but that can be attributed to mistrust due to being regularly attacked by other Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/70 "2012-10-01T01:49:04Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > I dispute that the intent of the founding of Israel was intended to make any current population second-class citizens. I recognize that Israeli Arabs do not have full rights under the current Israeli government, but that can be attributed to mistrust due to being regularly attacked by other Arabs. I don’t think the early Zionists said “Hey, you know what would be cool? If we made a country where Arabs are second class citizens”. Their intent was to make a Jewish dominated state. Marginalization of the current population is an inherent part of that. I mean, what else could have happened? It wasn’t practical to create a Jewish State in Palestine without any Arabs, because there were a lot of them living there. So whatever X% of Arabs fell within Israel were going to be denied power, have their government conducted in a foreign language, and essentially not enjoy all the rights and privileges of Jewish citizens. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Minority citizenry is very different from “second class” citizenry. > > It is very unlikely that the U.S. will elect a President who speaks only Vietnamese or Spanish, and most laws in the U.S. are written in English. This does not make Vietnamese speakers in the U.S. “second class citizens.” Completely different concept. I think if you are denied access to power, and don’t enjoy the same privileges as other citizens, then you are a second class citizen. Besides, we haven’t designed the U.S. specifically to deny these people power. On the other hand, that’s the entire point of Israel. A country for Jews, by Jews. No Arabs need apply. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/71 "2012-10-01T01:59:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > . . . I think if you are denied access to power, and don’t enjoy the same privileges as other citizens, then you are a second class citizen. Besides, we haven’t designed the U.S. specifically to deny these people power. On the other hand, that’s the entire point of Israel. A country for Jews, by Jews. No Arabs need apply. But Arabs are in power; there are quite a few Israelis of Arab ethnicity in the Knesset. Being disempowered by being a member of a minority is simply not the same as being denied access to power. There are no atheists in the U.S. Senate; this isn’t because the rules forbid it, but simply because none ever get elected. It sucks, but the only alternative would be to have an artificial “House of Tokens.” **Ibn Warraq** gave a better answer; he pointed out ways that truly are functionally discriminatory. You, so far, are only pointing out the ways in which being a minority is intrinsically disempowering. That’s just the way democracy works. A good constitutional democracy protects minorities. And, in fact, there have been numerous decisions of the Israeli Supreme Court, overruling various legislation that was discriminatory. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/72 "2012-10-01T02:00:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > On the other hand, that’s the entire point of Israel. A country for Jews, by Jews. No Arabs need apply. Are there Jews in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/73 "2012-10-01T02:04:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think the early Zionists said “Hey, you know what would be cool? If we made a country where Arabs are second class citizens”. Their intent was to make a Jewish dominated state. Marginalization of the current population is an inherent part of that. I mean, what else could have happened? It wasn’t practical to create a Jewish State in Palestine without any Arabs, because there were a lot of them living there. So whatever X% of Arabs fell within Israel were going to be denied power, have their government conducted in a foreign language, and essentially not enjoy all the rights and privileges of Jewish citizens. Early Zionism did not involve creating a Jewish state, so that’s one strawman right there. The creation of Israel was from Jewish-majority areas, so no forcing Arabs out of power was necessary. Minority status does not necessarily mean oppression. So, again, what proof have you of any plan for disenfranchisement of the current population of Palestine? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/74 "2012-10-01T02:05:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are there Jews in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? No, and I don’t think anyone denies that those countries are dramatically anti-Semitic. I don’t think bringing them up helps your case. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/75 "2012-10-01T02:10:06Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Early Zionism did not involve creating a Jewish state, so that’s one strawman right there. The creation of Israel was from Jewish-majority areas, so no forcing Arabs out of power was necessary. Minority status does not necessarily mean oppression. So, again, what proof have you of any plan for disenfranchisement of the current population of Palestine? Wouldn’t you agree that plans to make sure that non-Jews couldn’t buy any land in the area and were dramatically restricted in the jobs they could do counted as discriminatory? You’re far better off pointing to Hertzl’s silly book if you want to prove that the early Zionists wanted to live with Arabs as equals, because I don’t think Ben Gurion and the others, who actually set up the Yishuv ever even pretended that they would treat “the natives” equally. For the most part, they just tried to pretend they didn’t exist and tried to believe that Palestine really was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/76 "2012-10-01T02:10:32Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > If you really want to understand the contentious issues in a relatively quick but very detailed presentation you should watch the Dershowitz/Chomsky debates. I’d rather undergo root canal. Between Alan “Let’s legalise torture” Dershowitz and Noam “There’s no genocide happening in Cambodia” Chomsky I can’t think of two worse sources of factual information. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/77 "2012-10-01T02:15:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But Arabs are in power; there are quite a few Israelis of Arab ethnicity in the Knesset. Yeah, ok. I think there’s been one Arab cabinet member in Israel’s history, and they have no chance of reaching a position of any importanance anytime soon. A few token Arabs in the Knesset doesn’t change that. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Being disempowered by being a member of a minority is simply not the same as being denied access to power. The point is that being a minority shouldn’t automatically keep you from power. > [@Punoqllads](#): > > Early Zionism did not involve creating a Jewish state, so that’s one strawman right there. _laugh_ Ok. > [@Punoqllads](#): > > The creation of Israel was from Jewish-majority areas, so no forcing Arabs out of power was necessary. Minority status does not necessarily mean oppression. So, again, what proof have you of any plan for disenfranchisement of the current population of Palestine? No, minority status does not necessarily mean oppression. However, when you found your country as For People X, people who aren’t People X are by definition unequal. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/78 "2012-10-01T02:28:24Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Early Zionism did not involve creating a Jewish state, so that’s one strawman right there. The creation of Israel was from Jewish-majority areas, so no forcing Arabs out of power was necessary. Minority status does not necessarily mean oppression. So, again, what proof have you of any plan for disenfranchisement of the current population of Palestine? > [@treis](#): > > _laugh_ Ok. [Basel Declaration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Zionist_Congress#Basel_Declaration) > [@](#): > > Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a publicly and legally assured home in Palestine. For the attainment of this purpose, the Congress considers the following means serviceable: > > 1. The promotion of the settlement of Jewish agriculturists, artisans, and tradesmen in Palestine. > > 2. The federation of all Jews into local or general groups, according to the laws of the various countries. > > 3. The strengthening of the Jewish feeling and consciousness. > > 4. Preparatory steps for the attainment of those governmental grants which are necessary to the achievement of the Zionist purpose. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/79 "2012-10-01T02:34:18Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > [Basel Declaration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Zionist_Congress#Basel_Declaration) You should probably read the entire page before citing something: > [@](#): > > Theodor Herzl wrote in his diary (September 1, 1897): > “ Were I to sum up the Basel Congress in a word - which I shall guard against pronouncing publicly - it would be this: At Basel I founded the Jewish State. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/80 "2012-10-01T02:41:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wouldn’t you agree that plans to make sure that non-Jews couldn’t buy any land in the area and were dramatically restricted in the jobs they could do counted as discriminatory? > > You’re far better off pointing to Hertzl’s silly book if you want to prove that the early Zionists wanted to live with Arabs as equals, because I don’t think Ben Gurion and the others, who actually set up the Yishuv ever even pretended that they would treat “the natives” equally. > > For the most part, they just tried to pretend they didn’t exist and tried to believe that Palestine really was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” My understanding of the land ownership in Israel is that the government owns or holds over 90% of the land and doesn’t sell it ever, to anybody. It only leases out the land. What jobs were non-Jews restricted from taking? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=5)