# Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180 "2012-09-28T20:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/141 "2012-10-05T01:42:47Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Gazans have been living quite well, actually. Of course Israel could not allow ships to go through without, at least, inspecting them. Not by any fair definition of the term “living well”. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/142 "2012-10-05T14:07:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Sure. This just in: [**Gaza’s Future Looks Even Bleaker Than Its Past**](http://www.vpr.net/npr/161587070/) > > – more at source. > > So yeah, it’s a regular Paradise. The West Bank, however, is doing much better, despite an economic downturn in 2011. I wonder what the difference there could possibly be… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/143 "2012-10-05T15:10:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > None of which really matters, of course, because _the conflict is not about money_. Oh, I thought that was what you were implying when you contracted how dispossessed Jews in Israel were doing compared to dispossessed Arabs. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15552038&postcount=96](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15552038&postcount=96) If its not citizenship and its not compensation, then is it the right to inhabit that particular peice of land that their great grandfather inhabited? > [@](#): > > many Palestinians did not privately “own” their lands in the first place, as you know - and it is not a simple question as to whether and to what amount one can be legally “compensated” for having voluntarily abandoned traditional use-rights to land 64 years ago. I don’t think its fair to call it abandonment if you thought it was going to be temporary. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I like Number Five, but they could all kick my ass. > > Besides, it would annoy Mrs. Plant v.3.0. > > 🙂 Say hello to v.4.0 > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ottoman censuses from that time were notoriously unreliable, particularly when it came to counting both Christians and Jews. > > That said, nobody denies there wasn’t a dramatic increase of the Jewish population due to the various Aliyahs. Apparently Shodan does. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/144 "2012-10-05T15:11:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Apparently Shodan does. Nope. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/145 "2012-10-05T15:50:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Oh, I thought that was what you were implying when you contracted how dispossessed Jews in Israel were doing compared to dispossessed Arabs. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15552038&postcount=96](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15552038&postcount=96) > > If its not citizenship and its not compensation, then is it the right to inhabit that particular peice of land that their great grandfather inhabited? > > I don’t think its fair to call it abandonment if you thought it was going to be temporary. Yes, to a large extent. I don’t pretend to speak for them, but from what I’ve read, what many of them want is to in effect turn back the clock and get “their” lands back, the way they were before the disaster hit them (or, in most cases now, their ancestors). Citizenship in Israel they do not want (many have angrily rejected such a notion) and compensation would be nice but in effect a band-aid. The real problem is that their whole way of life was uprooted, as was their connection to ancestral lands. There is a whole new population who now lives on those lands, and in some cases the lands in question have disappeared under cities. Whatever happens in the future, it is extremely unlikely that there will ever be any return to Palestinian subsistance-farming there in little villages - or more generally, to replacing the existing population - except of course through a successful war of extermination on the existing population (which the Palestinains are in no position to wage). The real solution, for good or bad, will require resettlement of these refugees in some new way of life, presumably with some cash from Israel or elsewhere - as happened, for example, with the exactly comparable Jewish refugees. But that solution is also rejected, because to adopt it would be to give up the dream - of “returning” to the way things were. To give an example - at one point it was rumoured that Canada was willing to take in the Palestinian refugees. No-one could argue that this would not be an improvement (and any sensible refugee languishing in a camp ought to snap at it) - but most reactions from Palestinians were negative: nice offer, they said, but it detracts from the “right of return”. [http://list2.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0101c&L=fofognet&T=0&F=&S=&P=592](http://list2.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0101c&L=fofognet&T=0&F=&S=&P=592) > [@](#): > > The National Council on Canada Arab Relations welcomed Canada’s offer > to help, but cautioned against undermining UN Resolution 194 which > provides the refugees with the right to return to their homes." > “The NCCAR applauds Canada’s reaffirmation of her commitment to keep > the doors open to those who suffer oppression and dispossession,” the > lobby group said in a statement > “It is another tribute to Canada’s long history of welcoming refugees > seeking freedom and human security.” > The organization called on Manley to ensure that Canada’s offer “does > not conflict” with the Palestinians’ “right to choose to return to > the land from which they were evicted or left against their will.” > That right of return was paramount, said Monzer Zimmo, a Palestinian > Canadian who has lived here for more than 20 years. > "Canada can make the offer to both Palestinians and Israelis. It can > say “our doors are open to anyone who wants to come here,” he said. > “It can make the offer so long as it is made to an individual. Then > the choice whether to accept or not is an individual one. This > doesn’t relate to solving the conflict in the region.” > Zimmo, a financial consultant who is the president of the Canaanite > Canadian Knowledge Center, which promotes learning and enlightenment > in Palestine, stressed that “under no circumstances,” should Canada’s > > - or any other position - interfere with the right of return, which > is stipulated in United Nations Resolution 194. > “Canada was a signatory to it and the resolution has been reaffirmed > and reaffirmed since it was issued on Dec. 11, 1948,” he said. > Both Zimmo and the National Council insist that it is Israel which > must bear the responsibility for the refugees. > “As Canadians we’re interested in making sure that Canada does not > carry Israel’s burden and responsibility toward the Palestinians. The > Israelis must shoulder alone the basic responsibility for > repatriating and compensating their victims,” the council said in a > statement. > Zimmo agreed. > “The bottom line is that somebody committed a crime and somebody else > was the victim. Palestinians either fled or were forced out of their > homes by Zionist aggression,” he said. > “That crime cannot be forgotten. The criminal must be punished. It’s > not up to Canada to pay the price.” ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/146 "2012-10-05T20:12:09Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > The West Bank, however, is doing much better, despite an economic downturn in 2011. I wonder what the difference there could possibly be… It might be due to a stiflingly oppressive blockade around Gaza by the Israeli government, resulting in de facto collective punishment for Gaza residents in retaliation for electing rulers who are both hostile to Israel’s right to exist and who show little regard for anti-Israeli attacks launched from their soil. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/147 "2012-10-05T21:54:50Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > The West Bank, however, is doing much better, despite an economic downturn in 2011. I wonder what the difference there could possibly be… And the [**CIA says**](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/we.html)! > [@](#): > > The West Bank - the larger of the two areas comprising the Palestinian territories - has experienced a relatively high single-digit economic growth rate since 2008, but this rate has been sustained by inflows of donor aid rather than private sector economic activity. **After suffering an almost decade-long downturn following the start of the second intifada in 2000, overall standard-of-living measures have recovered to the levels seen in the late 1990s. Despite the Palestinian Authority’s ¶ largely successful implementation of economic and security reforms and the easing of some movement and access restrictions by the Israeli Government in 2010, Israeli closure policies continue to disrupt labor and trade flows, industrial capacity, and basic commerce, eroding the productive capacity of the West Bank economy.** Since mid-2007 the PA under President Mahmoud ABBAS and Prime Minister Salam FAYYAD has depended on more than $3 billion in direct foreign donor assistance to the PA’s budget. **The biggest impediments to economic improvements in the West Bank remain Palestinians’ lack of access to land and resources in Israeli-controlled areas, import and export restrictions, and a high-cost capital structure.** Absent robust private sector growth, the PA will continue to rely heavily on donor aid for its budgetary needs. > > \ > > country comparison to the world: [**145**](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html?countryName=West%20Bank&countryCode=we®ionCode=mde&rank=145#we) – bolding mine. Yup, they are doing just dandy. At least they don’t live in Gaza, right? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/148 "2012-10-06T02:02:25Z")
> [@MDKSquared](#): > > Disclaimer: I am not a troll, or even a Jewish individual… What in the world is this supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/149 "2012-10-06T04:20:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What in the world is this supposed to mean? Presumably that Jews like to stir shit up. Why else do you think they’ve been hated by so many people for so long. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/150 "2012-10-06T14:53:21Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Romans did not completely decimate the Jews in that area and some survived since biblical times, living along the fertile areas near the river valleys. Just a nitpick: decimate refers to a Roman practice of killing every tenth man in a Roman military unit that has done Something Awful. So if the Romans HAD completely decimated the Jews in the area, ninety percent of them would have survived. Which I suspect is not what you meant. You probably meant “exterminate.” ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/151 "2012-10-07T18:13:45Z")
> [@MDKSquared](#): > > Can someone, in simple terms, please explain to me the nature of the conflict? I’ve looked at Wiki articles and it all seems so complicated. As you’ve seen in the thread, it is pretty complicated. This helpful video summarizes the history pretty well: [This Land Is Mine](http://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/) by Nina Paley. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/152 "2012-10-08T14:22:20Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > It might be due to a stiflingly oppressive blockade around Gaza by the Israeli government, resulting in de facto collective punishment for Gaza residents in retaliation for electing rulers who are both hostile to Israel’s right to exist and who show little regard for anti-Israeli attacks launched from their soil. I could be wrong, of course, but it is my understanding that Israel is more than happy to accept humanitarian aid, as long as it is processed through their facilities. Given the rockets out of Gaza, I can totally see why they would want to keep an eye on things coming in to the area. And **RedFury** , please don’t put words in my mouth. At no point did I say living in Gaza was dandy. Unlike yourself, I’m not particularly partisan on the subject of Israel/Palestine. I don’t think anyone is the good guy here. ---
**Author:** ![MDKSquared](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MDKSquared](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MDKSquared)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/153 "2012-10-08T15:30:28Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What in the world is this supposed to mean? Sometimes I’ve noticed that people start threads about hot-button topics just to stir things up and cause flamewars, which is why I stated that I am not a troll and just making the thread to ask for factual explanations as opposed to a thread asking questions aimed at baiting. By mentioning that I am not Jewish (I should have probably also said “or Palestinian,” to be fair), I am trying to establish that I am not biased or looking for an answer to affirm one side over the other. I’m just an outsider looking in trying to get a fair view of things. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/154 "2012-10-08T16:24:27Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I could be wrong, of course, but it is my understanding that Israel is more than happy to accept humanitarian aid, as long as it is processed through their facilities. The blockade is responsible for 33% unemployment in Gaza. Here’s [Oxfam](http://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/gaza-5-years-under-blockade-jun2012.pdf)’s take on it (PDF) > [@](#): > > A stock take of the situation today as compared to five years ago shows a bleak picture. Every major mainstay of Gaza’s once lively economy has been decimated. The blockade seriously hampers fishing – an ancient vocation. The fishing waters safely available to fishermen have been halved during the blockade. Fishermen that venture beyond the three nautical mile limit imposed by the government of Israel risk facing gunfire, arrests and boat confiscations. > > Furniture production, garments and textiles, cash crops, vegetables and the processed food industries survive as mere shadows of their former selves as imports remain very limited and exports banned. Before the closure, the monthly average of exported goods from all of these sectors was more than 1,000 truckloads of goods. Since 14 June 2007, only 720 trucks of cash crops were allowed by Israel out of Gaza – that’s less than a 20th of the cash crops which left during the year before the blockade began. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/155 "2012-10-08T17:51:51Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > The blockade is responsible for 33% unemployment in Gaza. Here’s [Oxfam](http://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/gaza-5-years-under-blockade-jun2012.pdf)’s take on it (PDF) Certainly, I’m not denying that. I’m also of the personal opinion that they could probably ease the blockade restrictions a bit. But that’s not likely, as it seems every the Israeli’s give the Palestinians an inch, it goes badly. The clear and obvious solution is for those living in Gaza to kick the ever loving shit out of the idiots who think it’s a good idea to lob rockets into Israel, but since they have the guns and the average citizen doesn’t, that’s not going to happen either. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/156 "2012-10-08T18:07:31Z")
Short answer: Too many people, not enough space. Palestine was inhabited when the Israelis came in. Many countries were happy to have their Jews repatriate to Israel, but they did not welcome Palestinian Arabs in exchange. And both ethnic categories have grown in population since, in a land that can barely support them. There’s very little way for this to end well. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/157 "2012-10-08T18:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The clear and obvious solution is for those living in Gaza to kick the ever loving shit out of the idiots who think it’s a good idea to lob rockets into Israel, but since they have the guns and the average citizen doesn’t, that’s not going to happen either. But since they can’t, the blockade continues, which collectively punishes all Gazans, which builds resentment, which creates a never-ending stream of volunteers for attacks on Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/158 "2012-10-08T21:56:23Z")
> [@MDKSquared](#): > > Sometimes I’ve noticed that people start threads about hot-button topics just to stir things up and cause flamewars, which is why I stated that I am not a troll and just making the thread to ask for factual explanations as opposed to a thread asking questions aimed at baiting. > > By mentioning that I am not Jewish (I should have probably also said “or Palestinian,” to be fair), I am trying to establish that I am not biased or looking for an answer to affirm one side over the other. I’m just an outsider looking in trying to get a fair view of things. Ah, OK. Understood, and fair enough. It had sort of sounded like you meant to equate trolls and Jews, perhaps to imply that Jews do not approach the topic honestly. The rest of your post did not sound that way, though. I appreciate your clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/159 "2012-10-08T22:24:03Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > And **RedFury** , please don’t put words in my mouth. At no point did I say living in Gaza was dandy. Unlike yourself, I’m not particularly partisan on the subject of Israel/Palestine. I don’t think anyone is the good guy here. This was the exchange: > [@barbitu8](#): > > True, but the blockade included blocking armaments, of course. And Israel was supplying Gaza with all necessities and humanitarian supplies. Gazans have been living quite well, actually. Of course Israel could not allow ships to go through without, at least, inspecting them. > [@Tristan](#): > > **The West Bank, however, is doing much better** , despite an economic downturn in 2011. I wonder what the difference there could possibly be… – bolding mine. I then gave you a [CIA cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15560984&postcount=147) that says they are also in piss poor shape…and added a slightly snarky “Yup, they are doing just dandy. At least they don’t live in Gaza, right?.” Which simply agrees with what you wrote in **bold** though in a way you may not like. No “words” were put in your mouth. As for partisan & good and bad guys…well, I certainly dislike Israel’s extreme-right government – which wouldn’t be an issue if it didn’t affect so many people _inside their own land_. You know, _Palestinians_. That said, I bow out. You read a GD thread on this issue, you’ve read them all. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180/160 "2012-10-09T01:09:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You read a GD thread on this issue, you’ve read them all. I thought this one was holding together rather well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-whole-israel-conflict-to-me/636180.md?page=9)