# Can someone explain these welfare statistics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366 "2013-02-05T04:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/1 "2013-02-05T04:56:52Z")
Total amount of money you can make monthly and still receive Welfare $1000 Total Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than an $8 per hour job 40 Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than a $12 per hour job 7 Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than the average salary of a U.S. Teacher 9 Top 10 Hourly Wage Equivalent Welfare States in U.S. State Hourly Wage Equivalent Hawaii $17.50 Alaska $15.48 Massachusetts $14.66 Connecticut $14.23 Washington, D.C. $13.99 New York $13.13 New Jersey $12.55 Rhode Island $12.55 California $11.59 Virginia $11.11 I know that people on welfare don’t receive much. But some of these statistics seem to suggest they do. What’s going on here? Link: [http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/](http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/) ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/2 "2013-02-05T05:06:16Z")
Um… it seems pretty obvious to me, although I hope that others chime in. “Minimum wage” is not a living wage. It’s not that welfare is so great, but that the amount of money many people are making is so very inadequate. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/3 "2013-02-05T05:17:50Z")
1. Those figures are pretax figures - so that isn’t the benefits they are receiving, but what they would have to earn to get that level of benefits. 2. It appears those benefits include housing assistance. It is my understanding that most people on food stamps aren’t section 8, but I could be mistaken. 3. It appears those numbers came from the Cato institute - and can be explained in part with this: [http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/bp027.pdf](http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/bp027.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/4 "2013-02-05T05:18:18Z")
Also, “welfare” in the sense of ongoing cash payments for nothing other than being poor by and large does not exist any more in the US. What those statistics seem to be doing is counting up all of the individual food, housing, healthcare, etc programs available in those states. The vast majority of people are not going to qualify for all or possibly even most of those benefits. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/5 "2013-02-05T05:59:03Z")
Anise - I hear ya. I have issues with that as well. DataX - I don’t quite understand your first point. Could you clarify for me? But, thanks for the link. I’ll be sure to check it out. Greasyjack - That certainly explains things at least to some degree. Thanks! One statistic I know off hand is only 4% of the country is actually on welfare and the majority of those people are working as well. How do they calculate that welfare pays more than an $8-12 hr job or that of the average teacher salary? That just doesn’t seem right. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/6 "2013-02-05T06:14:12Z")
1st point was simply (and I think they are admitting this - and I’m not saying it not fair) that they are taking the value of the benefits - lets say $20.00 an hour - and figuring out what income you would need before taxes to net that - so maybe $25.00 an hour. Also Healthcare isn’t cheap. They are using 2 kids and one woman as their standard “family” in that one paper I linked. That in and of itself is expensive. Combine that with section 8 housing - and your starting to talk some real money. I believe their stock family made no money - and section 8 takes a portion of your income (not 100% sure) - so in this case - the subsidy would be counted 100% This can be over $1000 in some areas and almost - maybe even a tiny bit over $2000 a month in some others. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/7 "2013-02-05T13:16:28Z")
Of course I’m sure our thoughtful and caring friends at the Cato Institute are saying that this shows how luxuriously the lazy leeches on welfare are living, but some others might interpret it as a shocking example of how poorly teachers (and minimum wage workers) are paid. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/8 "2013-02-05T14:17:48Z")
So what is a starting teacher’s salary in some less-than-union-friendly states? A relative once told me (in the 90’s) that Idaho started not much over $20,000. That’s the equivalent of $10/hr for a year-round occupation. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/9 "2013-02-05T14:52:52Z")
> [@Tupac](#): > > Total amount of money you can make monthly and still receive Welfare The problem is that “welfare” is a collection of programs, each with different eligibility requirements, often based on more than just income or assets. And people don’t even have the same definition of which programs should be called “welfare.” So this entire collection of “stats” is absolutely useless. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/10 "2013-02-05T15:57:56Z")
The CATO-sourced numbers actually come from [this analysis](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-240.html), which was written in 1995. So, they’d be out of date no matter what, but they predate the Clinton [welfare retrenchment of 1996](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act), which narrowed welfare entitlement and benefits significantly, so now they’re hopelessly out of date. The recipient-by-race statistics also appear to be [out of date](http://archive.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/character/fy2010/fy2010_chap10_ys_final.html), but that may be because they’re counting Hispanics as a separate group. I have no idea where the $1,000 figure comes from. Means testing for TANF is based on household assets as well as income. Means testing for SNAP (food stamps) is based on a [sliding income scale depending on the number of people in the household](http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/11 "2013-02-05T18:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **First-Year Salary** > In Idaho, first-year teachers earn an average starting salary of $27,500 as of April 2011, according to Teacher Portal For a full-time 12-month job, $27,500 is about $13.22 an hour. Mind you, that’s “average” - Boise is apparently about $31,000 which means some other districts are significantly below this. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/12 "2013-02-06T05:12:48Z")
Thanks all! Can someone point me to some decent articles and/or books explaining present day welfare? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/13 "2013-02-06T14:41:29Z")
Which parts do you need explained? ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/14 "2013-02-06T16:47:24Z")
Politicians buying votes. Plain and simple. One of the rallying cries of the Democrats in Illinois is that the Republicans will cut your welfare while we’ll increase it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/15 "2013-02-06T16:59:34Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > Politicians buying votes. Plain and simple. One of the rallying cries of the Democrats in Illinois is that the Republicans will cut your welfare while we’ll increase it. Because welfare recipients vote in such huge numbers, right? LOL. (Maybe in Chicago though). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/16 "2013-02-06T17:44:10Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > Politicians buying votes. Plain and simple. One of the rallying cries of the Democrats in Illinois is that the Republicans will cut your welfare while we’ll increase it. **Moderator Note** **JerrySTL** , political jabs are not permitted in General Questions. No warning issued, but don’t do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/17 "2013-02-06T20:00:09Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > Politicians buying votes. Plain and simple. One of the rallying cries of the Democrats in Illinois is that the Republicans will cut your welfare while we’ll increase it. Which is odd because there is welfare in almost every country that can afford it, even ones that don’t know about democrats or republicans. It basically comes from the “well of general human decency” which every social movement from Christianity to socialism subscribes to - that a rich, well off society can spare some of its riches to ensure even the most wretched of its members don’t freeze and starve in the dark. There’s a quote somewhere in there about camels and needles, especially when you hear people complain about tax levels for people making over $400,000. Basically, there is a certain practical logic to this too - it’s never a good idea to have poor and desperate people roaming the streets looking for food or whatever they can grab. The Victorian era demonstarted that locking up the poor in poorhouses, and hanging them for stealing pennies or loaves of bread (or an extended cruise and Australian holiday), did not solve social problems. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/18 "2013-02-06T23:35:09Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > For a full-time 12-month job, $27,500 is about $13.22 an hour. > Mind you, that’s “average” - Boise is apparently about $31,000 which means some other districts are significantly below this. Of course, teachers only work about 10 months out of the year. In some schools/districts, you have a choice between getting 12 equal monthly paychecks or 10 checks only during the months you work. And if teachers are working for the cash, they’re in the wrong job. The real money is in the benefits and retirement. The box 12 DD code on 2012 W-2s is a real eye-opener for a lot of people, who are just now realizing that their health insurance often costs as much as their wages. I don’t mean this to de-rail the thread in any way, except to illustrate that it’s not so simple to compare income and benefits. If you reduce “welfare” to an hourly rate the way the original statistics have, then also have to increase teacher salaries dramatically, to reflect all of their non-taxable benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/19 "2013-02-07T00:41:11Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > So what is a starting teacher’s salary in some less-than-union-friendly states? A relative once told me (in the 90’s) that Idaho started not much over $20,000. That’s the equivalent of $10/hr for a year-round occupation. In Missouri the bottom 19 (out of 517) districts have a [starting salary of $22,000](http://mnea.org/Resource.ashx?sn=SalaryBenchmarks0607cond). ---
**Author:** ![kp\_72110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e68b1a/32.png) [@kp\_72110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kp_72110)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366/20 "2013-02-07T03:32:35Z")
They usually also include the EIC in those amounts. Not sure if that is one of the things they are counting in these statistics but it is probable they are. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-these-welfare-statistics/649366.md?page=2)