# Can someone explain this driving mentality to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846 "2010-08-10T17:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/41 "2010-08-10T23:39:53Z")
> [@Al\_Bundy](#): > > I’m convinced that I know the genesis of the thought in most cases. Their time is always worth more than yours. Also, they are smarter than everybody who planned for the lane change. “Surely, those meek milk toasts that would plan won’t mind letting me just this once. I’ll wave and all will be well or I’ll just squeeze in and not look back.” This sums it up nicely. Self important dicks. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/42 "2010-08-10T23:57:51Z")
> [@Omegaman](#): > > This sums it up nicely. Self important dicks. Believe what you want. Merging early is _not courteous_ in high-traffic situations. It just creates a mess and adds to everyone’s frustration. Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/43 "2010-08-11T00:15:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What merging early does is take more of the road out of use. Take the OP to its logical extension, and imagine that the road was one lane rather than two for its full length, but carrying the same number of cars. Wouldn’t you expect it to move slower? Nope. The total speed for the road will always be throttled by the single lane. As long as cars are entering the lane at (or near) the maximum load it will bear, and passing through it at that speed, it doesn’t matter _what_ happens before that point. The only difference is the order the cars go through - in which case obviously the most efficient approach (if in the closing lane) is to remain in it at the top speed you can go until the last moment, and then pray that somebody lets you in fast, or (if in the persisting lane) to remain in it at the top speed you can go the whole time, and pray that nobody in front of you is letting anyone in. Or, if everyone is merging early, you could try and game the system by changing _out_ of the persisting lane and racing ahead in the closing lane, to merge back in at the last minute. Assuming nobody catches on this should work like a charm. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/44 "2010-08-11T00:22:40Z")
Everyone should read the book ‘Traffic.’ It goes into this subject at great length. It’s a witty and fascinating read. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/45 "2010-08-11T00:57:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. I couldn’t agree more. It drives me crazy. ETA: Used to drive me crazy. I can’t actually drive now, but I swear it has nothing to do with not knowing how to navigate traffic! ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/46 "2010-08-11T00:59:50Z")
I think we are talking about different situations. On the roads I drive there is PLENTY of time to merge before hitting the absolute have to merge point and allow traffic to flow at the speed limit. Plenty of places to merge without slowing others down. What makes a mess are those that are in the proper lane, going the speed limit and see an open lane and try to pass everyone else when there is a merge coming up. They then hit the brakes at the absolute end of the road and screw things up. They are the asses that are not paying attention or simply don’t care if they disrupt the flow of traffic for everyone else. Traffic would move just fine if these people would merge into the moving traffic and just go with the flow. Again, there are a lot of different situations. When you have plenty of room to merge earlier without slowing down traffic, it is better to do that than try to pass that one extra car or ten and ending up coming to a complete halt and slowing or stopping all of the other vehicles when you try to get back in. It’s not just rude. It’s dangerous. The predictable order of things is to try not to come to a stop on a road because you did not have the forethought to merge when you could, and help keep traffic flowing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/47 "2010-08-11T01:31:46Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > The idea behind the zipper method is that the people in the opposing lanes DO NOT PASS ONE ANOTHER. I’ve seen truckers understand this and drive in the closing lane at the same speed, as the other lane, even though there may be open road ahead of them. I learned the tactic I described earlier from truckers, and **pulykamell** and others notwithstanding, I remain convinced that, as groups, truckers understand highway traffic dynamics better than car drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/48 "2010-08-11T02:12:43Z")
Exactly, **enipla**. There are TWO MILES of road in which to make the merge. The vast majority of people get in the proper lanes well before that point. It was maybe 20-30 cars at most, while I waited in line for five minutes, that breezed by the line and then slammed on their brakes at the merge point, causing people to have to stop to let them in and backing up traffic further. It’s fine to breeze by if people aren’t going to have to slow down to let you in, but if they are, you’re just causing problems. I’d rather traffic go 45-55 for those two miles (which is what the speed limit actually does–it goes to 55 two miles away and 45 about a half-mile away from the merge point) than sit in 20 mph traffic because 30 people couldn’t be arsed to wait. Past the merge point it immediately goes to 45-50 and stays there. Clearly the problem is the mergers, not the amount of traffic on the road. Oh well. It’s supposed to be gone on September 1st, and the same repairs they did going the other direction last summer were done 10 days early, so hopefully I only have a couple more weeks of this tops. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/49 "2010-08-11T02:23:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > > [@Omegaman](#): > > > > This sums it up nicely. Self important dicks. > > Believe what you want. Merging early is _not courteous_ in high-traffic situations. It just creates a mess and adds to everyone’s frustration. Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. Again, a very American idea. In a situation where you’re faced with doing what people _think_ works versus what might _actually_ work, _do what people think works_. Otherwise you risk making people think in a context where they don’t think they need to think. That _really_ fucks things up, sometimes to the point of creating real ressntment. ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/50 "2010-08-11T02:29:19Z")
Where is this magical place where the traffic flows at 45-50 mph after the merge point? The only reason I ever have any feelings about these threads is because every day I and countless others have to sit thru merges into a single lane that leave us crawling at 0-5 mph for miles. So for this situation I say, please heed the advice of the quoted traffic engineers and the big honking sign that says “USE BOTH LANES TO MERGE POINT” linked to by **pulykamell**. Please _don’t_ move over slightly to block us because you fell in earlier (probably thinking it was the nice polite non-asshole thing to do), and are now regretting it, and respond by doing something even more assholish. But if you got 45-50, meh. Count your blessings IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/51 "2010-08-11T02:35:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > > [@RitterSport](#): > > > > [ > > > > The only way to ensure that there is a rolling merge and no stopping is to agree to merge at a single point. Absent some sort of hive mind, that point has to be at or very near the end of the closing road. > > That is demonstrably wrong. > > I’ve merged and been merged by others WAY before the last possible merge point. Stopping did not generally happen in those cases. > > Here is the REAL problem IMO. In a perfect world, everybody co-operatively merges at the last minute (which would minimize everyones time delay). > > But what happens in practice is that there are plenty of assholes that see this only as a chance to pass others then merge at the last minute causing the problems mentioned in the OP. BUTTT, if most people instead decided to merge at the last minute, those same assholes would be in the primary lane refusing (to the best of their abilities) to allow people from the other lanes to merge at the last minute, cause the same problem in the OP, except in this case its the assholes in the moving lane and the victims trying to get in. > > Its really not which system you use, its more what fraction of uncooperative assholes you have. If its past some small but critical amount everybody gets screwed. Yes. The European-style zipper merge is a fantasy, at least when car density reaches a certain psychological tipping point. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/52 "2010-08-11T03:27:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. Yeah, no kidding. Some bozo waving a guy in, while the people coming from another direction have no idea they are doing that…ka-blammo! Or, someone waves someone in and the wavee thinks the way is clear, but the waver hasn’t really checked all the directions…ka-blammo! Or, some idiot waving someone else in, the other person balks, then moves up, the first guy moves up, stops, the second guy goes, stops, they both go…ka-blammo! Just follow the right of way. Jeez. And, West Coast on-ramps…ha! Too easy. Try merging onto the Belt Parkway, where some of the on-ramps seem to be about 100 feet. The trick is to wait at the beginning of the on-ramp, just so you can see the traffic, anticipate the opening, and floor it. What not to do: go to the end of the on-ramp and stop. That gives you 6 inches to zero to 60 mph. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/53 "2010-08-11T03:49:38Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > [@pulykamell](#): > > > > Believe what you want. Merging early is _not courteous_ in high-traffic situations. It just creates a mess and adds to everyone’s frustration. Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. > > Again, a very American idea. In a situation where you’re faced with doing what people _think_ works versus what might _actually_ work, _do what people think works_. Otherwise you risk making people think in a context where they don’t think they need to think. That _really_ fucks things up, sometimes to the point of creating real ressntment. I don’t see at all what this has to do with “American ideas” at all. Here’s the problem: as long as we can agree to one merge point, everything is fair. Or, hey, I’m down with the trucker idea of keeping pace with the adjacent lane (although this is not behavior I’ve ever noticed before, I’ll keep a look out for next time.) That works for me, too. The most logical and easiest place for this merge point is, well, where the lane runs out. The jackasses who merge right at the vaguest hint of a merge sign two miles out interrupt the flow of both lanes of traffic and create extra space in the merge lane. It is natural for drivers to want to fill this gap. I’ve never seen a passenger car pace the next lane when there is 50 feet of space in front of them. If you can teach them to do this, great. But why the fuck bother when you can just have everyone merge at the last moment, when there is no choice? Then, some other guy decides at 1.5 miles out to merge. Then at 1.25 miles. Then at 1 mile, etc., etc. All this way, it’s creating gaps in the merge lane, which other cars naturally fill, and disturbs the order in such a way that the early mergers are in the back of the line, and the late mergers are in front. If you want to preserve everyone’s sanity and a sense of fairness, use your lane to the merge point. Also, _this is exactly what we were taught to do in driver’s ed._ If everyone followed this simple rule, there’d be no need for any sort of animosity. (Not that I’ve ever noticed any from late merging. It doesn’t seem to be that big a deal around here.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/54 "2010-08-11T03:56:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > And, West Coast on-ramps…ha! Too easy. Try merging onto the Belt Parkway, where some of the on-ramps seem to be about 100 feet. The trick is to wait at the beginning of the on-ramp, just so you can see the traffic, anticipate the opening, and floor it. What not to do: go to the end of the on-ramp and stop. That gives you 6 inches to zero to 60 mph. We got some of those on the Kennedy (I-94) near downtown Chicago. I hate those. It’s pretty much a gun-it and pray approach. And you don’t really get any view of the traffic from the beginning of the on-ramp (they’re elevated on-ramps originating on overpasses, with concrete barriers on the side which block the view a bit.) You don’t really get a good view of what’s about to happen until you’re about half-way down the ramp. It’s…exciting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/55 "2010-08-11T07:07:33Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > So I recently moved out to the 'burbs, and honestly my commute is not as bad as I thought it would be, except for one thing. > > There’s a bit of construction on the freeway I take to work, which thankfully will be ending soon. There’s a ton of signage indicating that the left lane will be closed ahead, starting about two miles before it actually happens. Because I know the lane will be closed, I end up in the middle lane well ahead of time, and manage to go about 65-70 mph in that lane until about a mile before the lane closure. > > At that point what happens is that it gets backed up because all the assholes who didn’t get over into the middle lane ahead of time are now piled up by the orange barrels, stopped in traffic with their turn signals on trying to get into the middle lane. To which I ask, why? Obviously you can fucking read, otherwise you wouldn’t have been able to get your driver’s license in the first place. So clearly you know that you have to get over eventually. Why wait until the very last minute, at which point you have to stop, causing someone in the middle lane to have to stop to let you in, causing everyone else behind them to have to stop as well? Do you think the sign actually says “Left lane closed ahead, 2 miles, except for the douchebag in the Acura”? Or do you generally amble through life blissfully unaware of the consequences of your actions, speeding through the fast lane and wondering why everyone else is sitting there waiting in line driving 20 mph when they could be doing the speed limit with you? > > This morning was the worst. When the traffic started backing up, I thoughtfully left three car lengths in between me and the next person in front of me, so the people in the fast lane could get over. None of them did. A full 20 people blazed past me, then sat parked in the fast lane with their blinkers on, their bovine eyes glazed over with confusion at their predicament. And the worst part is that people ahead of me _stopped to let them in_. Why do we reward assholes for being assholes? > > I hope they all get herpes and die in a fire. Most of them think they are more important than you and their time is more valuable than their time (if their time was REALLY that valuable they wouldn’t be driving, they would be driven, in which case they can sit in traffic and work out of their office from the back seat of the Lincoln). Some are just stupid or clueless. A few have legitimate emergencies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/56 "2010-08-11T07:47:49Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The ramp meters work for the freeways, but they do so by transferring backups to the onramps. But a lot fewer cars are affected, and only for a few hundred feet, not half a mile. The speed of the metering lights can also be adjusted for conditions. > [@](#): > > This has nothing to do with where one merges. The slowdowns happen because there are then twice as many cars in the same space; people inevitably slow down in order to maintain their preferred following distances. If everybody merged earlier, the slowdown would simply happen earlier, wherever the last cars happen to merge. > > What merging early does is take more of the road out of use. Take the OP to its logical extension, and imagine that the road was one lane rather than two for its full length, but carrying the same number of cars. Wouldn’t you expect it to move slower? If people at the merge point left enough space for every other car merges, I’d agree. This rarely happens, though. Surely you’ve noticed that when a light turns green there is a long lag time before a car five or six back starts to move. which depends on the reaction times of the drivers of earlier cars. (The ones before me seem to resemble learning delayed snails.) If you can avoid braking, everyone goes faster. I’ve observed that cars let people coming in from an on-ramp in front of them much more willingly than cars perceived to be gaming the system. In fact, there have been one or two cases where both lanes were equally full, and the merge worked better, because you are more likely to set someone stuck next to you for 1/4 mile in than someone zooming up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/57 "2010-08-11T08:02:38Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I think we are talking about different situations. On the roads I drive there is PLENTY of time to merge before hitting the absolute have to merge point and allow traffic to flow at the speed limit. Plenty of places to merge without slowing others down. Well said. And, in addition, you have several choices of places to merge. There is often someone who leaves a lot of room, and merging in front of him doesn’t slow anyone down much. At a merge point you have no choices. An illustration of this is one road with a car pool lane, 2 traffic lanes, and a long on-ramp which goes away. I’ve noticed that people merging don’t cause much of a problem, since they usually wait for a space to open up, and are done before the on-ramp turns into an off-ramp. Those who do cause problems are carpoolers who seem offended at spending any more time in a normal traffic lane than absolutely necessary and who push in, often causing braking an a general jam - and sometimes blocking two lanes when there isn’t enough room. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/58 "2010-08-11T11:26:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If people at the merge point left enough space for every other car merges, I’d agree. But the key is that the only way they could do this is for them to slow down. Other cars who already merged have filled the spaces that were previously open in the through lane. With more cars in the through lane, the only way to open up more space between those cars is for those cars to slow down. That’s what’s going to happen with the last car in, no matter where one merges. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/59 "2010-08-11T15:44:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@RitterSport](#): > > > > You don’t recall seeing people use all the lanes up to the merge point? Or, you don’t see the alternate merge at the end? > > I don’t recall seeing the alternating merge at the end, nor any other effort to sacrifice a fraction of one’s own second to make anyone else’s life easier. I recall allowing drivers in the New York area to merge in front of me, and feeling like a rube, because I was literally the only driver in sight doing so. > > Granted, I’ve only spent a couple months’ worth of days, total in my life, driving in the vicinity of these cities. But that was enough to solidify my impression of New York-Boston as the very axis of bad driving behavior (New York the pole of inconsideration, Boston the pole of cluelessness). I submit that you just don’t understand the etiquette quite well enough. New Yorkers will always\* let you merge, but you have to lay claim to the space. If you don’t stick your fender out there like you mean it, you’re going to be ignored. Kinda the same as getting waited on at a bagel place, come to think of it. You have to be assertive. But once you are, everyone understands what you want and will let you take it. \*Well, not always, there are assholes everywhere. And NYC taxis won’t stop and let you in, they’ll swerve around you at 40 mph. But as a rule. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/60 "2010-08-11T17:31:01Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Exactly, **enipla** …breezed by the line and then slammed on their brakes at the merge point, causing people to **have to** stop to let them in Bolding mine. “have to”? The hell. I NEVER reward this assholish behavior by letting them in. If everyone did that, maybe the assholes would learn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846.md?page=4)