# Can someone explain this driving mentality to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846 "2010-08-10T17:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/61 "2010-08-11T17:42:15Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] Most of them think they are more important than you and their time is more valuable than their time [/QUOTE] It goes beyond this. Many know that they are The Only People In The World. Others may superficially seem to exist, but they’re just buzzy little annoyances who get in the way and can be ignored. The important thing is to get what you want as quickly and conveniently (for you) as possible. Socially responsible behavior is for fools. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/62 "2010-08-11T18:08:49Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > I don’t recall seeing the alternating merge at the end, nor any other effort to sacrifice a fraction of one’s own second to make anyone else’s life easier. I recall allowing drivers in the New York area to merge in front of me, and feeling like a rube, because I was literally the only driver in sight doing so. > > > > Granted, I’ve only spent a couple months’ worth of days, total in my life, driving in the vicinity of these cities. But that was enough to solidify my impression of New York-Boston as the very axis of bad driving behavior (New York the pole of inconsideration, Boston the pole of cluelessness). > > I submit that you just don’t understand the etiquette quite well enough. New Yorkers will always\* let you merge, but you have to lay claim to the space. If you don’t stick your fender out there like you mean it, you’re going to be ignored. > > Kinda the same as getting waited on at a bagel place, come to think of it. You have to be assertive. But once you are, everyone understands what you want and will let you take it. > \*Well, not always, there are assholes everywhere. And NYC taxis won’t stop and let you in, they’ll swerve around you at 40 mph. But as a rule. I spent a long time in New York. It’s like this, I think: if you’re willing to act like a _little_ bit of an asshole, New Yorkers will respect your rights. If you’re not willing to play the asshole _at all,_ you have no rights. A good test of whether NY is spiritually right for you is to go into a busy lunch place where you have to order from counters. If you’re confused the firs tfew times - fine, that’s normal. If you’re _resentful_ at all the confusion needed just to grab a bite to eat, please - find somewhere else to live. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/63 "2010-08-11T19:58:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > If people at the merge point left enough space for every other car merges, I’d agree. > > But the key is that the only way they could do this is for them to slow down. Other cars who already merged have filled the spaces that were previously open in the through lane. With more cars in the through lane, the only way to open up more space between those cars is for those cars to slow down. That’s what’s going to happen with the last car in, no matter where one merges. Only if there is a constant density of cars in the region. This does happen for very long backups, and then merging at the merge point does work better, since cars in the merged lane are expecting the merge. But usually a mile back there are many instances of large gaps between cars, and it is possible to merge inside of these gaps with only minor slowing of the car behind. There is a big difference between easing off the accelerator and leaving more room and stopping and then restarting - both in time required and in fuel consumption. My Prius tells me this all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/64 "2010-08-11T20:18:43Z")
> [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](#): > > > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > > > Exactly, **enipla** …breezed by the line and then slammed on their brakes at the merge point, causing people to **have to** stop to let them in > > Bolding mine. > > “have to”? The hell. > > I NEVER reward this assholish behavior by letting them in. If everyone did that, maybe the assholes would learn. How about “causing those who choose to let them in to stop, thus backing up the whole fucking line.” Because that’s what I was going for there. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/65 "2010-08-13T05:29:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > > [@pulykamell](#): > > > > Just like waving people on when you have the right of way. You may think you’re being courteous, but you’re messing with the predictable order of things. > > Yeah, no kidding. Some bozo waving a guy in, while the people coming from another direction have no idea they are doing that…ka-blammo! Or, someone waves someone in and the wavee thinks the way is clear, but the waver hasn’t really checked all the directions…ka-blammo! Or, some idiot waving someone else in, the other person balks, then moves up, the first guy moves up, stops, the second guy goes, stops, they both go…ka-blammo! > > Just follow the right of way. Jeez. Yes, wavers should be boiled in oil. One nearly got me t-boned by a moving van because he waved a guy backing out a driveway, without checking to see if BOTH lanes were free of cars. They weren’t! I was entering the turn lane, and the guy in the van couldn’t see me past the idiot in the SUV who waved him out (though considering the guy in the van backed straight out across both lanes rather than angling into the one he wanted to be in, maybe he was an idiot too). Fortunately I dodged out of the way on time. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > The real problem is annoyed drivers who slow down to gawk at the people zipping by in the soon-to-be-closed lane. > [QUOTE=spark240] > Granted, I’ve only spent a couple months’ worth of days, total in my life, driving in the vicinity of these cities. But that was enough to solidify my impression of New York-Boston as the very axis of bad driving behavior (New York the pole of inconsideration, Boston the pole of cluelessness). That’s unfair. Boston drivers are very nearly as rude as New York drivers. [/QUOTE] I never understand why RI drivers get left out of things like this. Has no one else ever driving in Providence? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/66 "2010-08-13T05:42:44Z")
We have three of these points on my regular roads, thankfully, I don’t commute every day. Some people will always try to do the merge later to save some time at others’ expense. It sucks. The solution is to add another lane. Thankfully, two of the three bottlenecks are doing just that due to the stimulus. Before the stimulus there had been plans but no money. ---
**Author:** ![wbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/439d5e/32.png) [@wbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wbeaty)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/67 "2010-08-15T06:59:23Z")
Now if you want to Do Science, you find that during congestion, early merging creates reduced average flow, and late merging creates higher average flow. This happens because with late merging, there is no competition between drivers who believe that early merging is correct, and drivers who believe that late “zipper merging” is correct. And “cheating” becomes impossible. With late merging, both lanes are filled, and there is no empty lane to tempt cheaters (or to allow those with Late Merge philosophy to confuse and anger the Early Mergers by employing the empty lane.) See: [Dynamic Late Merge Control Concept for Work Zones on Rural Freeways](http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/wz/workshops/accessible/McCoy.htm) [Indiana Lane Merge](http://www.google.com/search?q=indiana+lane+merge) In terms of system efficiency, this translates into: 1. Those who merge early are creating a merge pattern which slows things down. 2. Those who decide to “punish” drivers or to block merges are causing this type of traffic jam, as well as behaving illegally. And from my own amateur experiments, sometimes a single driver can drain out every last “cheater” and trigger an unplugging event which temporarily opens up spaces and makes merging possible both early and late. We do this by providing large empty spaces to allow merging at speed. Don’t forget, if there are no spaces at all, then the people trapped for minutes in the ending lane will simply force their way in at a fraction of 1MPH, even if it means scraping paint or leaping out of cars while brandishing tire irons and pistols. Don’t forget, if the police arrive, the ones who get tickets will be the ones who “play vigilante” and try to take the law into their own hands and make merging impossible. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/68 "2010-08-15T07:18:01Z")
Over here in Ukland, we get similar behaviour on motorways, but since the prevailing traffic is usually about 60-70 mph, people do let the “cheaters” in as not to do so could cause a catastrophe. In other road conditions, we also occasionally have signs that say, confusingly, “MERGE IN TURN” which I used to think meant “don’t merge until you reach the turn”, which would be dangerous, but now realise means “alternate lanes when merging” - i.e. the European zipper. The last one I saw was in Kingston upon Thames I think. And, amazingly, it works. I have never seen _anyone_ cheat it. Everyone gets through when they get to their turn, and flow is maintained. ETA: didn’t realise this was the pit. Please read the last sentence as: “Everyone gets through when they get to their turn, and flow is maintained. Assholes.” ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/69 "2010-08-17T02:47:24Z")
If you merge early you have time to find an open place and merge without slowing anyone down. If your an asshole and you wait to the end, there is either an open space to merge or you have to **stop**. I don’t see how hard this is for people to understand, when people merge over to get into an exit lane they don’t wait until 10 feet before the exit, come to a full stop, wait for the people in the exit lane to stop and let them in, and then claim that was the most efficient way to do it. This is complete BS and and the people who do it are selfish assholes ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/70 "2010-08-17T12:36:34Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Americans, however much of a hurry we may be in, will gladly slow things down for ourselves _and_ everybody around us before we’ll forgive _even the appearance_ of breaking the rule about Everybody In The Same Goddam Lane, Head Down, Eyes Front, and Shut Yer Mouth. > > Zipper merging European-style does not even enter into the realm of possibility for most of us. That level of cooperation is _not_ “courteous,” probably because it doesn’t bring people _down_ to a common level in the fine and humble Christian way. Instead it allows people to help each other _up_ to a new level - faster merging, in this case. That’s distressingly namby-pamby behavior, if it isn’t outright communistic. I’ve often wondered about cultural differences between America and Elsewhere. But wondered in vain as, reading this, I have no clue whether **Beware of Doug** has hit the nail on the head here, or is instead completely off-base! ??? 😕 :eek: (I _will_ say those complaining about minor American driving foibles haven’t driven in rural Thailand. To give just one example, many drivers here straddle the dividing line, since center-of-road is the “safest place.”) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/71 "2010-08-17T14:26:19Z")
> [@wbeaty](#): > > Now if you want to Do Science, you find that during congestion, early merging creates reduced average flow, and late merging creates higher average flow. This happens because with late merging, there is no competition between drivers who believe that early merging is correct, and drivers who believe that late “zipper merging” is correct. And “cheating” becomes impossible. Cheating becomes impossible how? I don’t follow. All that has to happen to cheat a zipper merge is for one car to stay crammed up behind the one in front of him and not let someone in the other lane take a turn – something that happens repeatedly everywhere I see a zipper merge attempted. Conversely to your science that “punishing” “cheating” drifers creates backup, there have been game-theory studies published asserting that the optimal driving conditions occur when drivers are mutually courteous _until someone cheats_, and then they act in concert to punish the cheating driver. Punishing cheating drivers is seen as optimal behavior in these studies. No link because several of these have appeared over the years (meaning you can find them if you want) but I cam too busy to struggle with search engines. ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/72 "2010-08-18T18:34:00Z")
> [@wbeaty](#): > > Now if you want to Do Science… Hi Bill, thanks for showing up here. I have linked people to your site several times in an attempt to convince people of the right way to behave in traffic jams. As I’m sure you know, however (and as evidenced here), it seems that some people cannot be convinced that using the merge lane as intended and as designed is not “cheating”, but the most efficient way to use the road. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/73 "2010-08-18T18:58:02Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > > [@wbeaty](#): > > > > Now if you want to Do Science… > > Hi Bill, thanks for showing up here. I have linked people to your site several times in an attempt to convince people of the right way to behave in traffic jams. As I’m sure you know, however (and as evidenced here), it seems that some people cannot be convinced that using the merge lane as intended and as designed is not “cheating”, but the most efficient way to use the road. In some situations it may be best to merge late. In fact, sometimes you have no choice. What I see (everyday) is that if these late mergers would just merge with the flow of traffic earlier, they would not slow traffic down near as much. When they merge late they create dangerous conditions wherein they have to merge into freeflowing traffic from nearly a stopped speed. It’s the same as driving to the end of an on ramp, stopping and THEN trying to merge. Why is this not understood as being dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/74 "2010-08-18T19:39:14Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > > [@MrSquishy](#): > > > > Hi Bill, thanks for showing up here. I have linked people to your site several times in an attempt to convince people of the right way to behave in traffic jams. As I’m sure you know, however (and as evidenced here), it seems that some people cannot be convinced that using the merge lane as intended and as designed is not “cheating”, but the most efficient way to use the road. > > In some situations it may be best to merge late. In fact, sometimes you have no choice. What I see (everyday) is that if these late mergers would just merge with the flow of traffic earlier, they would not slow traffic down near as much. When they merge late they create dangerous conditions wherein they have to merge into freeflowing traffic from nearly a stopped speed. It’s the same as driving to the end of an on ramp, stopping and THEN trying to merge. Why is this not understood as being dangerous? I think the disconnect here is that those of us in the late merging crowd are generally talking about a very slow traffic situation, while (some of?) the early merger crowd seem to be talking about a situation where the traffic is actually moving relatively quickly (the OP later said 45-50 mph after the merge point). The latter case is analagous to your on-ramp example, but the former is not. To make it more analogous, think of your on-ramp example, but imagine that the main road is bumper-to-bumper, stop-and-go traffic both before and after the on-ramp. In this situation would you still merge at the earliest possible moment (with a stretch of open on-ramp ahead of you)? If the traffic is generally moving quickly then sure, merge naturally with the flow of traffic at speed. But I’m not bothering to argue about this scenario, I would just be happy not crawling along at 5 mph. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/75 "2010-08-18T20:15:08Z")
> [@arseNal](#): > > To make it more analogous, think of your on-ramp example, but imagine that the main road is bumper-to-bumper, stop-and-go traffic both before and after the on-ramp. In this situation would you still merge at the earliest possible moment (with a stretch of open on-ramp ahead of you)? Yep, that’s why I said in some situations, you have to merge late. But, at least for myself, the situation that you describe above is so rare it’s not worth addressing. Us early mergers are talking about folks that have plenty of time and room to merge, but refuse to do so until they have run out of all other options but to force their way in and make traffic slow down for them. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/76 "2010-08-18T20:44:37Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > > [@wbeaty](#): > > > > Now if you want to Do Science… > > Hi Bill, thanks for showing up here. I have linked people to your site several times in an attempt to convince people of the right way to behave in traffic jams. As I’m sure you know, however (and as evidenced here), it seems that some people cannot be convinced that using the merge lane as intended and as designed is not “cheating”, but the most efficient way to use the road. I think there’s general confusion as to what “using the merge lane as designed” means. In my mind, it means that those in the merging lane are NOT going faster than those in the continuing lane. In other words, the average speed for both lanes is the same. This can be achieved, to some degree, by the rolling blockage spark40 mentioned earlier…I have never seen it occur naturally, as there are always people who see free lane space ahead and think that they should go the max alowed speed in it ebfore the merge point. In some people’s minds it means that when traffic is going 20mph in the continuing lane, it’s perfectly fine to go 50 in the merging lane, and force a merge at the end, causing traffic shockwaves. ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/77 "2010-08-18T23:57:36Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yep, that’s why I said in some situations, you have to merge late. But, at least for myself, the situation that you describe above is so rare it’s not worth addressing. For me, it’s the exact opposite. I deal with construction causing closed lanes and the resultant bumper-to-bumper traffic literally daily. If we are going 45-50 mph after the merge point, I don’t much care when other people are merging, I’m thanking my lucky stars that I’m not in stop-and-go conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846/78 "2010-08-19T11:03:43Z")
> [@arseNal](#): > > > [@enipla](#): > > > > Yep, that’s why I said in some situations, you have to merge late. But, at least for myself, the situation that you describe above is so rare it’s not worth addressing. > > For me, it’s the exact opposite. I deal with construction causing closed lanes and the resultant bumper-to-bumper traffic literally daily. If we are going 45-50 mph after the merge point, I don’t much care when other people are merging, I’m thanking my lucky stars that I’m not in stop-and-go conditions. Nevermind the fact that we just had TWO MILES of stop and go conditions before the merge point, because of the people doing what **crazyjoe** just mentioned. I’d rather go consistently slower for a few more miles than go the speed limit, then two miles of 20 mph max, before I get to people doing the speed limit directly after the merge point again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-this-driving-mentality-to-me/549846.md?page=3)