# Can someone explain to me the shootings in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505 "2011-10-13T06:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/41 "2011-10-13T16:21:53Z")
I am pro gun rights (not necessarily pro-gun - I don’t own one or have any intention of owning one). It should be obvious that easy access to guns is a factor in rates of gun related violence. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/42 "2011-10-13T17:10:12Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > And there was another one today, down in Seal Beach, south of Los Angeles. Spurned lover shot up his girlfriend’s workplace. From what I have heard in the early reports, everyone knew the guy wasn’t right in the head, so it wasn’t like they didn’t have a heads-up. Reports I’ve seen say it was an ex-husband upset about a custody issue, and that he had been the one who originally filed for divorce. Is there any interest, I wonder, in addressing the fact that the vast majority of these spree shooters are men? Do we need to get better at teaching men better ways of handling frustration than killing not only the object of their frustration but also numbers of other innocent bystanders? I already know that we need to, as a society, get better at identifying and treating mental illness such as the Virginia Tech shooter exhibited. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/43 "2011-10-13T17:36:44Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Dublane obviously being not a particularly good example as it was as a reaction to this (and Hungerford) that the UK brought in their very strict gun laws. > > And then there was a fourteen year gap between Dunblane and then next massacre in the UK. Which, compared to the rate of them in the likes of the US, could be used as an argument to say the gun control laws worked. > > [List of massacres in Great Britain - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_Kingdom) > > [List of massacres in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States) According to the wikipedia site before Dunblane, if you ignore the ones having to do with the IRA there was only one mass shooting in the previous 150 years before the strict gun laws were passed. It seems that the lax gun laws in the UK did a better job preventing mass shooting than the strict gun laws. Or there is no correlation that can be seen between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/44 "2011-10-13T17:40:06Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I already know that we need to, as a society, get better at identifying and treating mental illness such as the Virginia Tech shooter exhibited. Bingo! The OP asked “Can someone explain to me the shootings in the US?” and so far everyone is talking about gun policy. We should be talking about mental health policy instead - of which we have none, other than “you are on your own, buddy”. In the US you are free to do as you want, include go crazy. Some people seek treatment, some live with it, some harm/kill themselves, a very small number harm/kill others. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/45 "2011-10-13T17:41:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > …the U.S. Constitution is a living document that is reinterpreted… on a regular basis. Not if Scalia can help it. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/46 "2011-10-13T17:44:57Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Wow yeah Fatty Moore is way off on that. Canada’s gun laws are more restrictive than the US, heck we even have laws that restrict replica’s. Carry permits are almost unheard of and ownership is also more restricted than the US. > > I would also question the US gun numbers. 2007 numbers were: > US - 89/100 people (high but not 200/100) > Can - 31/100 people This calls for a repeat of one of my favorite Canadian stories, which it turn shows why I hold the sensible Canadians in such high regard… Years ago I was on a fishing trip in British Columbia, and one evening fell into conversation with a couple of local lumberjacks in the hotel bar. Being the brash American, I brought up the subject of firearms and commented on Canadian-style gun control. I suppose, in retrospect I may have sounded a bit condescending although I honestly didn’t mean to…heck, we were all pretty deep into our cups by that time. The local gave some thought to my statement, then said; “It’s true, we don’t feel the need to have guns around all the time. But, you see, we’ve never had the fascination with firearms that you seem to have in the states. When somebody pisses you off, your first thought is to get a gun and shoot him. Around here if somebody gives us a hard time we don’t even think about shooting them…we just take them out back and beat the sh\*t out of 'em.” :eek: Makes perfect sense to me. SS ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/47 "2011-10-13T18:02:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > According to the wikipedia site before Dunblane, if you ignore the ones having to do with the IRA there was only one mass shooting in the previous 150 years before the strict gun laws were passed. It seems that the lax gun laws in the UK did a better job preventing mass shooting than the strict gun laws. Or there is no correlation that can be seen between the two. Where “lax gun laws” meant we could own a pistol, which had to be locked away in a registered gun club, for the sole purposes of sport shooting? Or we could own (and still can) a shotgun or rifle for hunting and pest control? The UK has not had “lax gun laws” for over a century now. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/48 "2011-10-13T18:31:33Z")
I am quite pro-gun ownership by civilians, and I will accept the occasional gun spree shooter and a slightly higher rate of fatalities when violent crime occurs. I realize that my fellow citizens might not feel that way, and we can have THAT fight at the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/49 "2011-10-13T18:42:57Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > This calls for a repeat of one of my favorite Canadian stories, which it turn shows why I hold the sensible Canadians in such high regard… > > Years ago I was on a fishing trip in British Columbia, and one evening fell into conversation with a couple of local lumberjacks in the hotel bar. Being the brash American, I brought up the subject of firearms and commented on Canadian-style gun control. I suppose, in retrospect I may have sounded a bit condescending although I honestly didn’t mean to…heck, we were all pretty deep into our cups by that time. > > The local gave some thought to my statement, then said; “It’s true, we don’t feel the need to have guns around all the time. But, you see, we’ve never had the fascination with firearms that you seem to have in the states. When somebody pisses you off, your first thought is to get a gun and shoot him. Around here if somebody gives us a hard time we don’t even think about shooting them…we just take them out back and beat the sh\*t out of 'em.” :eek: > > Makes perfect sense to me. > SS This is sort of what I was going to say. Gang activity is going up in Canada, but it’s still at the point where it’s knives, not guns, and it’s still very neighborhood-based. If you don’t live in a bad neighborhood, you’re not going to get shot _or_ stabbed. And the gang gun activity is mostly restricted to the upper levels. The little peons aren’t shooting each other, it’s the top people shooting each other. It’s something that has really confused me. Americans say they own guns to protect themselves from robbers or home invaders, but those people don’t have guns anyway! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/50 "2011-10-13T18:45:26Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Bingo! The OP asked “Can someone explain to me the shootings in the US?” and so far everyone is talking about gun policy. We should be talking about mental health policy instead - of which we have none, other than “you are on your own, buddy”. In the US you are free to do as you want, include go crazy. Some people seek treatment, some live with it, some harm/kill themselves, a very small number harm/kill others. I made this point before on the thread about the Gifford shooting, it was sad that many pro gun advocates showed an actual dislike of even looking for better care and for more effective ways to prevent people with mental issues from getting a hold of a gun in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/51 "2011-10-13T18:45:55Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > It’s something that has really confused me. Americans say they own guns to protect themselves from robbers or home invaders, but those people don’t have guns anyway! I’m sure some 60 year old, 130 pound woman will be comforted to know that she doesn’t need a gun because her 19 year old home invader only has a knife. ---
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/52 "2011-10-13T19:56:10Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > It’s something that has really confused me. Americans say they own guns to protect themselves from robbers or home invaders, but those people don’t have guns anyway! Wha–? Robbers and home invaders don’t have guns? :dubious: This must be something new, because last I heard robbers and home invaders were at least as likely to have guns as anybody else. Or are you saying the victims of robbery and home invasion don’t have guns? Just curious about that statement. Enjoying the debate otherwise, so carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/53 "2011-10-13T20:15:11Z")
Hm, I looked up the actual numbers on serial killers, and… ```auto Population Serial Killers Per 10m USA 312m 217 6.955 Canada 35m 10 2.857 UK 62m 51 8.225 Germany 82m 17 2.073 France 66m 15 2.273 ``` So obviously crimes of a certain type can be specific to nations. (English speakers are bizarre…) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/54 "2011-10-13T20:42:57Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Perhaps we could get drugs off the streets if they were prohibited, not just in this town and that county hither and you, but nationwide… oh, wait… Drugs are harder to restrict; you’ll note that prisons are full of drugs, but not guns. They can be made easier, they can be stored/hidden in more ways since they aren’t solid objects, they are addictive, they can be used in private. Frankly if the only effect of strict gun control was to make the gun owners bury their guns in the back yard that would be a victory; hidden guns aren’t being used to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/55 "2011-10-13T20:52:49Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Not if Scalia can help it. Not as long as he can claim it says what he wants it to. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/56 "2011-10-13T20:58:54Z")
Please recall that in many other places such violence is mistaken for a political act. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/57 "2011-10-13T21:00:54Z")
Every once in awhile you’ll read a story about some foreigner going on a stabbing spree. Have you ever stabbed 4 or 5 people to death? It takes a lot of work! You have to be angry enough to chase them down and everything. Here in America we lazy bums just casually mow people down with a rifle or a pistol from a distance, not stopping to smell the murder. We have so much to learn. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/58 "2011-10-13T21:05:24Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Wouldn’t things be a little easier if people stopped pretending a 230-year old document was handed down from Mount Olympus rather than something written by people to suit its specific time and circumstances: Grow the fuck up and behave like intelligent, responsible adults rather than a John Wayne metaphor. Probably just as difficult as being polite on the web. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/59 "2011-10-13T21:06:01Z")
As a pro-gun person… There’s no question that a person with violent objectives in the US can acquire a firearm much more easily than in other places. However, I also think the case can be made, given the distribution of perpetrators of violence, that guns are not a cause of said violence. I think a lot of the violence in the US comes from the perception of marginalization by people who are on the fringes. In Europe, you can believe to some extent (with things like UHC and a perceived wider social safety net) that even if you’re down, you’re not out and there’s a way to get out. In the US, there’s a feeling among many that the downtrodden are lazy bums who don’t deserve anything. Well, if you tell a person he doesn’t deserve anything other than the bottom, I think that person’s probably more likely to try to take something than work to get that something. Similarly, the most likely perp of a shooting is an ex-husband, or a socially marginalized student, or someone filled with racist rage, or similar. Add in historical racial tensions that are still ongoing in many ways, and you have a hell of a stewpot brewing. I note that I expect to see the crime rates of this type rising in Europe with African/Arab/Subcontinent immigration, not because of who the immigrants are specifically but because of their own perceptions of themselves as marginalized/ghettoized. Whether it will be guns or fists+knives due to availability remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/60 "2011-10-13T21:12:02Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Every so often, one hears of some regular civilian johnnie in the US losing it, and shooting a few(or more) innocent people. I’ve only ever heard of this happening in the United States (although I can recall one incident in the UK, and the one in Norway of course). There was a guy in… Belgium, I think ? Couple years back. He decided to dress up like a clown, go into a maternity ward with a knife and just went to town on the babies. Killed or maimed around 20. Awful stuff. One assumes he’d have had a machine gun were those legal in Belgium - less tiring, more bpm\*. People just break in the head. - that’s babies per minute of course. I’ll keep y’all a spot in the big furnace by the most scenic lake of fire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505.md?page=4)