# Can someone explain to me the shootings in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505 "2011-10-13T06:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/61 "2011-10-13T21:43:32Z")
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > Wha–? Robbers and home invaders don’t have guns? :dubious: This must be something new, because last I heard robbers and home invaders were at least as likely to have guns as anybody else. Or are you saying the victims of robbery and home invasion don’t have guns? > > Just curious about that statement. Enjoying the debate otherwise, so carry on. Sorry, I derped in the middle of writing that post, I was working and got distracted. > [@kushiel](#): > > Americans say they own guns to protect themselves from robbers or home invaders, but those people don’t have guns anyway! I meant to say ‘Americans say they own guns to protect themselves from robbers or home invaders, but **in Canada** those people don’t have guns anyway!’ [This page](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010001/article/11115-eng.htm#a6) has stats on robbery and weapons in Canada. Between 1999-2008 robbery with a weapon declined, 2% of all robbery victims required medical attention and homicides from robbery were ~3% of all total homicides. I admit that I have no stats on how many of those victims have firearms, only anecdotal data from living in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/62 "2011-10-13T22:08:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You’d have to be pretty stupid to claim otherwise. Yes, of course we have far more shootings because guns are widely available. But some things that have to be considered: America has always had these guns as part of the country’s culture and we simply have gotten to the point where, because of how saturated the country is with guns, banning them would do more harm than good. The people who don’t care about obeying the law won’t give them up, and only the law abiding people would be disarmed. This has already been demonstrated in a smaller scale in cities with very strict gun laws like Washington DC that are plagued with violent gun crime. > > In short, for better or worse, America is stuck with the guns; at this point, it’d be more effective to work on alleviating the conditions that create the crime, rather than trying to just ban guns. There are too many guns in circulation for that to be effective. > … American here. The US is, truly, saturated with guns and has been for the entirety of it’s history. In some rural areas, you can pretty much assume that everyone and their little sister has a gun. Saying you can’t have a gun to some people is like saying you can’t go to the church of your choice or can’t publish your own newspaper - it’s unthinkable treachery against the foundations of American values. People even carry openly in Suburbia. I’ve walked into fast food restaurants and someone was just casually there with a pistol on his hip, and nobody acted as if they really cared. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/63 "2011-10-14T02:44:46Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Every so often, one hears of some regular civilian johnnie in the US losing it, and shooting a few(or more) innocent people. I’ve only ever heard of this happening in the United States (although I can recall one incident in the UK, and the one in Norway of course). > > Is it that there are genuinely more such cases in the US or that its a media/reporting bias - i.e because its happening in the US you get to hear about it everywhere in the world? Almost certainly, after all there are bloody shootings in Nairobi or Rio de Janeiro but you hear about it far less often. > [@](#): > > And if there are more such incidents in the US, then why is it so? Possibly because people in industrialized countries tend to go bonkers more often-Scandinavia has very high suicide rates for example. > [@](#): > > Is it because of the relaxed gun laws? No not really, than if someone does manage to get a gun than you are pretty much helpless. > [@](#): > > Then why aren’t they tightened up inspite of so many tragic occurrences? See above and the Second Amendment > [@](#): > > Are there defensible arguments in favour of allowing guns? [/QUOTE] Yes: self-defence, various uses in rural areas, for sport, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/64 "2011-10-14T03:10:56Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Possibly because people in industrialized countries tend to go bonkers more often-Scandinavia has very high suicide rates for example. You ever \*been \*to Scandinavia ? Or ate lutefisk ? You’d want to die too 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/65 "2011-10-14T03:12:30Z")
The scandanavian suicide thing is entirely explained by the amount of sunlight they get, as far as I know. There’s a very strong correlation between lattitude and depression and suicide. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/66 "2011-10-14T03:19:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There was a guy in… Belgium, I think ? Couple years back. He decided to dress up like a clown, go into a maternity ward with a knife and just went to town on the babies. Killed or maimed around 20. Awful stuff. i hate you for that post! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/67 "2011-10-14T03:54:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The scandanavian suicide thing is entirely explained by the amount of sunlight they get, as far as I know. There’s a very strong correlation between lattitude and depression and suicide. The allegedly high Scandinavian suicide rate is a complete Urban Myth. See for example [here](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200904/sunshine-and-suicide), but examples abound. I thought this legend had died out back in the 1980s. The link also debunks the “sunshine” aspect. Snopes also busts a lot of suicide myths [here](http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/68 "2011-10-14T05:57:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > - that’s babies per minute of course. I’ll keep y’all a spot in the big furnace by the most scenic lake of fire. Will someone please bring a guitar? And marshmallows? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/and_his_buzzer_goes/32/377_2.png) [@And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/And_his_buzzer_goes)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/69 "2011-10-14T07:29:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There was a guy in… Belgium, I think ? Couple years back. He decided to dress up like a clown, go into a maternity ward with a knife and just went to town on the babies. Killed or maimed around 20. Awful stuff. Belgian here. He was dressed up as the Joker and killed 3, maiming 12 others and it was in a nursery/daycare. More details on [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendermonde_nursery_attack) Yes, it sent a shockwave through society. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/70 "2011-10-14T07:49:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Hm, I looked up the actual numbers on serial killers, and… > > ```auto > > Population Serial Killers Per 10m > USA 312m 217 6.955 > Canada 35m 10 2.857 > UK 62m 51 8.225 > Germany 82m 17 2.073 > France 66m 15 2.273 > > ``` > > So obviously crimes of a certain type can be specific to nations. (English speakers are bizarre…) Those numbers look approximately proportional to the amount of urbanisation/population density. Which would kinda make sense - heap people on top of each other, and it increases their tendency (or opportunity) to kill one another. A problem with the utopian notion of arcologies, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/71 "2011-10-14T08:39:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Those numbers look approximately proportional to the amount of urbanisation/population density. Not too sure about that. The US is pretty sparsely populated versus Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/72 "2011-10-14T09:24:30Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > An interesting question, but in Europe is apparently difficult to get crime statistics broken down by ethnic group. In France, it is illegal to collect even basic demographic data. Do you have any statistics that people of non-European descent in Europe are numerous and homicidal enough to decrease the homicide rate by over 1/3rd if they are excluded from the data? Collecting basic demographic data is perfectly legal in France (both the government and private companies do it all the time), what’s not done is collecting racial data. Spain had a random shooting just last week (one pregnant woman dead; her due-this-week son saved by EMTs who performed an emergency cesarean; another woman badly wounded; both this woman and the baby are already at home), but in general mass violence (terrorism aside) is likely to involve knives/blunt weapons. In those cases involving guns, the shooter was either a cop or a hunter, that is, someone who would normally have guns - it’s not someone saying “ok, I’m going to kill that bitch, so I need a gun”. After all, most people here have no idea how to use a gun, but anybody knows how to use a hammer or a pair of seamstress’ scissors. The most common cause of murder appears to be “noticing that your man is a piece of shit and leaving him”, followed by “teenager whose developing mental illness has gone unheeded for years and who at one point decides his family is better off dead (the two cases I can think of involved low-income families and a youngest sibling with a major physical and mental disability)” and by “teenagers (involved in gangs or not) who really, really aren’t right inna head (often some sort of racists or supremacists)”. That was a lot of (), sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/73 "2011-10-14T09:55:32Z")
Last year (2010) 54 American police officers were shot and killed in the line of duty, with another 15 unlawfully killed (e.g run over). By comparision in the UK 15 officers have died unlawfully (so not limited to shootings, most were stabbings or being run over) in the last 10 years. As with the US, most gun crime is in inner cities, and is often linked to drugs/gang activity. We’ve had three serious spree shootings since I’ve been alive (Hungerford, Dunblane and Whitehaven), and the fact I can name them without looking them up shows how rare they are. Would most Americans be able to identify all spree shootings over the last 30yrs in the USA? I guess on a individual state basis this might be easier, bearing in mind the size of America. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/74 "2011-10-14T09:58:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > An interesting question, but in Europe is apparently difficult to get crime statistics broken down by ethnic group. In France, it is illegal to collect even basic demographic data. Do you have any statistics that people of non-European descent in Europe are numerous and homicidal enough to decrease the homicide rate by over 1/3rd if they are excluded from the data? No, but then again it isn’t me making any wild claims, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/75 "2011-10-14T09:58:36Z")
WHY do we have more? I don’t think it’s the guns themselves - they are just handy tools. We have a society with very low empathy that’s been desensitized via glorified imitation violence. Movies, video games… We have a society where bullies don’t get punished very often, and petty cruelties are swept under the rug or otherwise accepted as somehow ‘normal’. Worse yet, we often blame the victims for it happening. We have a society where seeking help from mental health professionals is sneered at as being ‘weak’. We have a society where, even if you WANT help, if you don’t have cash in hand, there’s a year to 18 month waiting list, unless you’re “in crisis”… then it’s often STILL a month. We have a lot of “copy cats” who crave their 15 minutes of fame, but don’t even have Paris Hilton’s miniscule level of talent. We also have a country bigger than all the European nations combined. So a larger number of these types of things should probably be expected. Probably could come up with more lots more reasons, if I really thought about it ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/76 "2011-10-14T10:00:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > According to the wikipedia site before Dunblane, if you ignore the ones having to do with the IRA there was only one mass shooting in the previous 150 years before the strict gun laws were passed. It seems that the lax gun laws in the UK did a better job preventing mass shooting than the strict gun laws. Or there is no correlation that can be seen between the two. Or maybe the lax gun laws allowed both sides to be armed during “The Troubles”. I don’t think you can really hand wave that away like you seem to want to. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/77 "2011-10-14T10:13:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You ever \*been \*to Scandinavia ? Or ate lutefisk ? You’d want to die too 😛 Never understood how people bring up lutfisk. Yes, its icky, but it is more just a gelatinous mass. Surströmming, now that’s the weird shit. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/78 "2011-10-14T10:24:25Z")
> [@Da\_Mikster](#): > > WHY do we have more? I don’t think it’s the guns themselves - they are just handy tools. > > We have a society with very low empathy that’s been desensitized via glorified imitation violence. Movies, video games… > > We have a society where bullies don’t get punished very often, and petty cruelties are swept under the rug or otherwise accepted as somehow ‘normal’. Worse yet, we often blame the victims for it happening. > > We have a society where seeking help from mental health professionals is sneered at as being ‘weak’. > > We have a society where, even if you WANT help, if you don’t have cash in hand, there’s a year to 18 month waiting list, unless you’re “in crisis”… then it’s often STILL a month. > > We have a lot of “copy cats” who crave their 15 minutes of fame, but don’t even have Paris Hilton’s miniscule level of talent. > > We also have a country bigger than all the European nations combined. So a larger number of these types of things should probably be expected. > > Probably could come up with more lots more reasons, if I really thought about it Actually, most of that just sounds like people anywhere and everywhere to me. Which essentially means gun control is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/79 "2011-10-14T10:29:03Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Not too sure about that. The US is pretty sparsely populated versus Europe. Might not be a very tight correlation, however, it perhaps depends how you calculate it The US has a lot of land, but it’s my impression that the densely- populated parts are _very_ dense by comparison to the densely populated parts of the other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/80 "2011-10-14T10:41:54Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Never understood how people bring up lutfisk. Yes, its icky, but it is more just a gelatinous mass. Surströmming, now that’s the weird shit. I was going for broad cultural recognition, since people do always bring up lutefisk. But there’s a simple rule I go by: if it’s fish-based and comes from latitudes north of Denmark, it’s safe to assume I don’t even want to be in the same room as it\*. This is the culture that unleashed [Hàkarl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl) onto an innocent, unsuspecting world you understand. It’s like they figured it was totally unfair that durian doesn’t grow so far up north and set out to remedy that deficiency with mad science and/or sorcery. Or tried to make cheese out of fish. Either way, it’s just wrong and revolting and _WHY?!_ \*itself a subset of my broader fish diet rule: “don’t”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505.md?page=5)