# Can someone explain to me the shootings in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505 "2011-10-13T06:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/101 "2011-10-14T16:52:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Homicide rate or gun-related homicide rate? > > Because only one of those is relevant to a discussion about shootings in the US: Whats the difference between a homicide and a gun related homicide? If JoelUpchurch is correct that US homicide rates are similar to other countries then why should I be more worried about gun violence compared to other types. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/102 "2011-10-14T17:42:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Homicide rate or gun-related homicide rate? > > Because only one of those is relevant to a discussion about shootings in the US: The last sentence of the OP: > [@](#): > > Are there defensible arguments in favour of allowing guns? Obviously the argument that firearms don’t **cause** violence is a defensible argument. You simply are trying to exclude data that contradicts you instead of refuting it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/103 "2011-10-14T19:19:36Z")
[Children Killed by Guns](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922329.html) here are kids killed by guns in one year. Merely 3385. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/104 "2011-10-14T19:38:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922329.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922329.html) here are kids killed by guns in one year. Merely 3385. You really want to argue that people that are old enough to vote are kids? This old chestnut only works on idiots that don’t bother to look at your cite. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/105 "2011-10-14T20:42:39Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You really want to argue that people that are old enough to vote are kids? This old chestnut only works on idiots that don’t bother to look at your cite. Unless you have evidence of how many of the deaths in the 0 - 19 y.o. range were actually in the 18 - 19 y.o. range, your argument has no more weight than gonzo’s. = = = You would also do well to tone down the insulting language. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/106 "2011-10-14T20:58:02Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Ah yes, The Philippines. What are you trying to say with this snippy comment? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/107 "2011-10-14T21:30:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Unless you have evidence of how many of the deaths in the 0 - 19 y.o. range were actually in the 18 - 19 y.o. range, your argument has no more weight than gonzo’s. > You would also do well to tone down the insulting language. There were 632 firearm homicides for people under 18 in 2010. [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl09.xls](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl09.xls) If **gonzomax** wants to include accidents and suicides in his numbers, then he should state explicitly, since all the previous discussion were about homicides. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/108 "2011-10-14T23:56:49Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > They do happen in other places (Though Norway actually has a very high rate of gun ownership). > > But they DO happen more often in the US than anywhere else. But is that more often on a per capita basis, or more often overall? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/109 "2011-10-15T02:32:25Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > But is that more often on a per capita basis, or more often overall? See post #43. I realize serial killers and spree shooters are somewhat different beasts, but it does seem that America is a more dangerous place than is average in the West. Of course, it could also be that different countries have different ways of classifying their criminals (e.g. the criteria for defining someone as a serial killer could vary based on # of victims, # of separate incidents, delay between each incident etc…) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/110 "2011-10-15T02:35:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > See post #43. I realize serial killers and spree shooters are somewhat different beasts, but it does seem that America is a more dangerous place than is average in the West. A handful of incidents a decade in a country with 300m+ people and you’re worried about the danger of being a victim of a spree shooter, rather than something more dangerous like, I dunno, running yourself over with a lawnmower? Again, the scale of these things is almost negligible. It only matters if you’re driven by sensationalism rather than rationality in terms of the danger it presents. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/111 "2011-10-15T03:32:21Z")
I said nothing of being worried. \*\*Spectre \*\*asked if the OP’s premise was true and I pointed him to a cite showing it probably was. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/112 "2011-10-15T13:30:58Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > There were 632 firearm homicides for people under 18 in 2010. > > [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl09.xls](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl09.xls) > > If **gonzomax** wants to include accidents and suicides in his numbers, then he should state explicitly, since all the previous discussion were about homicides. The OP mentioned shootings. These are all, every damn one of them shootings. It is you who are using drive away goal posts. I am directly responsive to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/113 "2011-10-15T20:07:03Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The OP mentioned shootings. These are all, every damn one of them shootings. It is you who are using drive away goal posts. I am directly responsive to the OP. The OP was talking about people shooting other people. There was nothing about suicides and accidents. If you want to start discussing accidental deaths and suicides, then I open by pointing out that there are 13 countries in Europe that have suicide rates higher than the United States. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_OECD\_countries\_by\_suicide\_rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/114 "2011-10-17T06:27:30Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The OP was talking about people shooting other people. There was nothing about suicides and accidents. If you want to start discussing accidental deaths and suicides, then I open by pointing out that there are 13 countries in Europe that have suicide rates higher than the United States. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_OECD\_countries\_by\_suicide\_rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate) How many are done using guns? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/115 "2011-10-17T07:58:50Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > How many are done using guns? Again, that’s irrelevant. If they are happening anyways, then obviously access to guns is not a cause. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/116 "2011-10-17T09:07:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Again, that’s irrelevant. If they are happening anyways, then obviously access to guns is not a cause. I disagree. The discussion is about guns. Perhaps in other countries there are other reasons why. You just seem to want to handwave stuff away. It was also interesting that the figures we’re given for “suicides and accidents” seemed to only consist of suicides. Anyone got the figures for accidents? To be honest, it doesn’t really bother me. The US likes their guns and well, you’ll be glad to hear I’m cool with you having your guns 😉 You do your things your way and we’ll do ours ours. I just don’t like misrepresentation of facts and cherry picking of data to push an ideological agenda, which is how I see things like the magic dropping of accidents from “suicides and accidents” so the US maybe looks a bit better when compared to other countries, the comparison of “Americans of European descent” with “All Europeans”, the magic handwaving away of things just because someone declares them “irrelevant” … ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/117 "2011-10-17T15:13:31Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > It was also interesting that the figures we’re given for “suicides and accidents” seemed to only consist of suicides. Anyone got the figures for accidents? > > To be honest, it doesn’t really bother me. The US likes their guns and well, you’ll be glad to hear I’m cool with you having your guns 😉 You do your things your way and we’ll do ours ours. I just don’t like misrepresentation of facts and cherry picking of data to push an ideological agenda, which is how I see things like the magic dropping of accidents from “suicides and accidents” so the US maybe looks a bit better when compared to other countries, the comparison of “Americans of European descent” with “All Europeans”, the magic handwaving away of things just because someone declares them “irrelevant” … In the United States, firearms are listed at #7 cause of accidental deaths with 1,500 compared to 43,000 automotive deaths. [http://www.soyouwanna.com/soyouwanna-top-ten-causes-accidental-death-america-4008-p2.html](http://www.soyouwanna.com/soyouwanna-top-ten-causes-accidental-death-america-4008-p2.html) The latest statistics indicate that drug overdoses have actually passed automobile accidents, while others consider medical errors the leading cause of accidental deaths with 225,000 deaths per year. [http://www.cancure.org/medical\_errors.htm](http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/118 "2011-10-18T07:07:19Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Come to the Mid-Atlantic area sometime, and try to figure out where the DC Metro Area ends and the Baltimore Metro Area begins, or figure out where the Baltimore area ends and the Philly Metro Area area begins. It’s more difficult than it sounds and there are borderlands areas that could be considered both. The 19th century mill town of Laurel, MD can arguably be considered now to be both a DC suburb and a Baltimore suburb. True, there are some rural or semirural areas here and there, but you are never in the “sticks” and there are developments that have sprouted up all over the place. And that’s all little houses. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > They don’t seem to be inclined to collect basic immigration data either. > > The EU doesn’t seem to be that picky. They report the non-European population of Europe as 3-4%. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration\_to\_Europe#Other\_data](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe#Other_data) That doesn’t mean the people who aren’t from Europe, though: it means the people who do not have European citizenship and who are permanent residents. Have an European passport because one of your grandparents was from an European nation which gives passports to children and grandchildren of emigrants? You don’t count in that stat. Got naturalized? You don’t count in that stat. Not a permanent resident? You don’t count in that stat. Not officially in the country? You don’t count in that stat. Tourists, wetbacks, returns, foreign workers on temporary visas… don’t count for that stat. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/119 "2011-10-18T15:38:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And that’s all little houses. > > That doesn’t mean the people who aren’t from Europe, though: it means the people who do not have European citizenship and who are permanent residents. > > Have an European passport because one of your grandparents was from an European nation which gives passports to children and grandchildren of emigrants? You don’t count in that stat. > > Got naturalized? You don’t count in that stat. > > Not a permanent resident? You don’t count in that stat. > > Not officially in the country? You don’t count in that stat. > > Tourists, wetbacks, returns, foreign workers on temporary visas… don’t count for that stat. Do you actually have a cite for that? Some of the other references I checked seem to contradict what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505/120 "2011-10-18T15:56:17Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Wouldn’t things be a little easier if people stopped pretending a 230-year old document was handed down from Mount Olympus rather than something written by people to suit its specific time and circumstances: Grow the fuck up and behave like intelligent, responsible adults rather than a John Wayne metaphor. The problem with that is where do you stop? You do it for one thing…why not another? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-the-shootings-in-the-us/599505.md?page=5)