# Can someone explain to me why what we are doing isn't overreacting **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 26, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297 "2020-03-26T02:09:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/161 "2020-03-27T23:42:10Z")
Sure it’s been said, but feel the need to emphasize no need for the rate of transmission to be the same for every city, country, age group, etc. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/162 "2020-03-27T23:55:12Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Did I say give up? Did the OP? no. There is middle ground here. I am so goddamn tired of one extreme or the other in politics, in pandemics, in this whole country. I am done trying to communicate with people shouting from one end or the other, at each other. Can none of you read any more? I’ve concluded that at this point in time everyone is scared to a certain extent, and that fear turns into anger. There is no reasoned discourse or discussion at this time. It was bad enough before, but with this pandemic, now all you see (despite the prohibition in this whole section about political potshots) is complaints about Trump, veiled insults to skirt the board rules, and a complete refusal of otherwise reasonable people to engage this OP in what is a reasonable point of discussion. Nobody wants anyone to die, nobody wants to place the well being of billionaires above others, nobody thinks that the elderly are lesser people, or that you can value a life with money…except to the extent that we always make policy tradeoffs regarding freedom and security versus safety. But nobody can have that discussion right now. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/163 "2020-03-28T00:29:03Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > By ‘other laws’, do you mean the first amendment? How, pray tell, can a martial law abide by the restriction against Congress pass a lawing respecting the right of the people to peaceably assemble? Do a Google or Wiki search for martial law in the United States ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/164 "2020-03-28T00:40:06Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > By ‘other laws’, do you mean the first amendment? How, pray tell, can a martial law abide by the restriction against Congress pass a lawing respecting the right of the people to peaceably assemble? I agree. Ex parte Milligan: [Ex parte Milligan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_Milligan) Martial law may not be declared where civilian courts are open and may only be used in areas of military operations “where war really prevails.” If we want to say that this is “war” then get ready for martial law when we have a “war” on drugs, poverty, crime, etc. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/165 "2020-03-28T00:43:29Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Thread winner! > Most Pit threads leave a shred of dignity. This is just brutal. > Excellent post. Do we get to revisit it when he’s wrong about the fatalistic ‘seven to ten days’ stuff? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/166 "2020-03-28T01:18:22Z")
Go to a McDonald’s drive-through during a busy lunch with a big line and tell them you want to order 300 big macs. When they freak out that it will take forever to make that many while you hold up the line as well as everyone inside the restaurant, complain that their signs say they serve billions and your order is a tiny fraction of that. That’s what is happening at emergency rooms only your Big Macs are the patients. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/167 "2020-03-28T02:13:17Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > OFFS. Patients are always sedated on a ventilator, unless they are comfortable being awake for it. They are invariably sedated for the process of inserting the big tube down their trachea. And “drowning in their own blood” is a crappy description of ARDS. This is a horrible enough disease without vaguely accurate lurid descriptions. ARDS could probably better be described as having your lungs turn to leather, if you want a horror movie phrase. > > Expertise in one field doesn’t really make people experts in all fields, however much they may think they are. First of all, I’ve never pretended to be an epidemiologist, virologist, or a physician. I’ve read a fair number of books on epidemiology and virology but I think I’ve made it pretty clear that the guidance I’ve given is not my own but is from sources I consider to be authoritative and fact-based and is consistent with what the actual experts in the field are recommending. Second, as several other posters have demonstrated, patients are not always sedated while under ventilation. Any patient that is being ventilated for days will almost certainly be sedated because it just isn’t possible to rest or sleep in that condition, but when doctors need a patient to be responsive the patient has to be conscious and to describe having a tube down your throat forcing air into your lungs as uncomfortable is an understatement. Third, I assume by “having your lungs turn to leather”, you mean the scaring due to pulmonary fibrosis that sometimes occurs post-respiratory infection. This certainly results in a measurable reduction in perfusive capacity resulting in shortness of breath and discomfort among other problems, but the fundamental cause of acute respiratory distress is the break down of protective membrane of the alveoli which results in leakage of blood into the lungs. In severe cases, the lungs fill with plasma and it is literally like drowning as there is no longer a path for oxygen to reach whatever alveoli are still intact. [Mayo Clinic webpage on Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ards/symptoms-causes/syc-20355576) > [@UltraVires](#): > > There is no reasoned discourse or discussion at this time. It was bad enough before, but with this pandemic, now all you see (despite the prohibition in this whole section about political potshots) is complaints about Trump, veiled insults to skirt the board rules, and a complete refusal of otherwise reasonable people to engage this OP in what is a reasonable point of discussion. This is nonsense. There has been “reasoned discourse” on the question of the o.p., to which he and others have misinterpreted statistics, argued that people beyond their “productive years” (whatever that is) are not worth making sacrifices for, that the total number of deaths of even in the millions is “a drop in the bucket”, and that if we would just push through this and let the epidemic take its natural course we could just return to normal _tout suite_. Many posters have made cogent, well-reasoned explanations of why none of these statements or assumptions aren’t true, why the current measures in place are not an “overreacting” based upon the evidence we see in other countries that failed to act, what attendant damages would occur while the an uncontrolled epidemic puts millions of people in emergency rooms and denies critical response to other patients, how even a reduction in the peak rates of morbidity (“flattening the curve”) may significantly improve the outcome, and why we are going to be facing a longer term economic recession regardless of what we do. This is not a “both sides make good points,” issue. Now, if the questions are how far we should go to save a life, how do we decide who to treat, how much of our normal economy is really critical to be in operation during a pandemic, what kind of protection do we need to offer to first responders and what should we be doing to limit their exposure even if it means letting a certain amount of petty crime occur, how much do we need to pay off corporate interests so we can also get assistance and security to those most in need, how do we know when the epidemic is peaked and we can back off, and so forth; those are all excellent questions that are subject to discussion and reasoned (e.g. factual) discourse. But whether we should do nothing (that will be of any real use) or do something that may be costly but have some chance of altering the outcome isn’t even a worthwhile question to consider unless you are just fine with writing off millions of people in this country alone under the premise that it just isn’t worthwhile to try to change the outcome or that by ignoring the outbreak everything will be fine for those not afflicted. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/168 "2020-03-28T02:16:22Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > OFFS. Patients are always sedated on a ventilator, unless they are comfortable being awake for it. They are invariably sedated for the process of inserting the big tube down their trachea. And “drowning in their own blood” is a crappy description of ARDS. This is a horrible enough disease without vaguely accurate lurid descriptions. ARDS could probably better be described as having your lungs turn to leather, if you want a horror movie phrase. > > Expertise in one field doesn’t really make people experts in all fields, however much they may think they are. > > Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk My mom was on a ventilator for months. She certainly wasn’t sedated the whole time. (She wasn’t especially comfortable, either.) It was pretty freaky when they took her out of her hospital room to go get a test or procedure. They unhooked her from the machine, and a guy attached a large plastic bellows to her tube, and stood there next to her, ventilating her by hand. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/169 "2020-03-28T02:20:16Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > Do we get to revisit it when he’s wrong about the fatalistic ‘seven to ten days’ stuff? We can revisit it right now: [_New York Times_: ‘People Are Dying’: Battling Coronavirus Inside a N.Y.C. Hospital](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE68xVXf8Kw) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/170 "2020-03-28T02:23:06Z")
Having intubated and ventilated hundreds of patients, it is exceedingly rare not to use sedation during ventilation. Perhaps in cases where there is essentially no gag reflex or in unusual cases where normal positioning is contraindicated. Extubation (taking the tube out) may be different. Some places may not have adequate medications, however. This is not so relevant to the discussion, which has in fact mostly been reasonable but not reassuring. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/171 "2020-03-28T02:31:42Z")
If there were enough doctors and equipment, would it be so overhyped? About 2000 deaths in America out of how much population? Billions? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/172 "2020-03-28T03:27:43Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > OFFS. Patients are always sedated on a ventilator, unless they are comfortable being awake for it. They are invariably sedated for the process of inserting the big tube down their trachea. And “drowning in their own blood” is a crappy description of ARDS. This is a horrible enough disease without vaguely accurate lurid descriptions. ARDS could probably better be described as having your lungs turn to leather, if you want a horror movie phrase. > > Expertise in one field doesn’t really make people experts in all fields, however much they may think they are. > > Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk “Drowning in their own blood” was a quote directly from the article, from a ventilation technician/nurse on the front lines. According to the first person accounts, people cough up pink frothy liquid and they have to run the ventilators at a high pressure typically used for drowning victims all because blood is leaking into the patient’s lungs due to the virus’ affect on the lungs. All of this is happening while the patient is in a fever delirium, and is probably strapped down so they can’t fight. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/173 "2020-03-28T03:40:06Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > If there were enough doctors and equipment, would it be so overhyped? About 2000 deaths in America out of how much population? Billions? You think America has billions of people? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/174 "2020-03-28T03:47:33Z")
I feel like I live in the dumbest country on Earth. All we have to do to prevent a global pandemic from killing tens of thousands of people or more is to wash our hands, work from home and stay away from other people as much as possible. And people can’t even do that. No, it’s too important to get drunk on spring break or at a bar full of a-holes. > [@panache45](#): > > In the early years of the AIDS epidemic, we had no idea that a virus was responsible, or how the disease was spread. We didn’t know how to “stay out of its way”, and many places, like gay establishments, were shut down because of this ignorance. There were even suggestions to isolate all gay men on an island somewhere. Or worse. What, like Fire Island? ---
**Author:** ![Lic\_Marcos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Lic\_Marcos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lic_Marcos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/175 "2020-03-30T06:51:18Z")
The death rate isn’t a magic property of the disease. It varies city to city. 0.5% is a best case estimate, if we flatten the curve. Right now in italy it’s more like 10%. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/176 "2020-03-30T11:07:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I feel like I live in the dumbest country on Earth. All we have to do to prevent a global pandemic from killing tens of thousands of people or more is to wash our hands, work from home and stay away from other people as much as possible. And people can’t even do that. No, it’s too important to get drunk on spring break or at a bar full of a-holes. What I find weirder is how many have skipped several stages of denial. It’s most jarring of course with…let’s just say “a” wing of the media, which in a matter of days went from calling this a storm in a teacup, or even a hoax, to saying we need to sacrifice our elderly to appease Lord Covid. We can fight this; there are countries doing very well to limit the spread right now (including geographically large countries, or whatever other excuse for the US being “exceptional”). It just takes cooperation and a focused government providing doctors and citizens the resources they need. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/177 "2020-03-30T11:36:03Z")
I think a lot of the stupid people are ill-informed. Some willfully. But some people are living in bubbles. They aren’t news junkies like the rest of us are. My mother is someone who watches a lot of MSNBC and CNN, so I would not consider her to be totally uninformed. But yesterday she told me she was surprised by how many people in her ministry (she’s an associate minister at her church) have expressed fear over the coronavirus. I was like, “Um…why wouldn’t they be scared!?” and I felt myself getting mad because I thought she was about to say something bad about people who fail to be Christian sages on a mountaintop all the time like she is. But then it dawned on me that her parishioners, being a lot younger than she is, are exactly like me. They–we–are on social media platforms like Reddit and the SDMB. They are looking at the stats every day, maybe even more frequently than that, and reading articles about Italy and other places. My mother ain’t doing any of these things. Like, when I told her about all the people who have died in Iran, she was shocked. Because her news sources haven’t really covered Iran all that much. I have to give her and my father props for taking this seriously. And I don’t think there’s something wrong with my mother for not feeling afraid; she can’t help how she doesn’t feel. But I think she’s like a lot of people. She knows this thing is bad in a theoretical sense because her favorite talking heads are telling her it is. But she doesn’t really know how bad it can be because she’s not into the information _that_ hard. I have no doubt that if her kids weren’t regularly pleading with her to stay home, her ass would be going to the mall like everything is normal. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/178 "2020-03-30T12:42:21Z")
In fairness, this has been a surprising event in both speed and scope. It’s not a new thing for the news to be warning us of some impending threat that’s coming to your neighborhood any day now…it’s another thing for it to actually happen. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/179 "2020-03-30T12:58:42Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > We can fight this; there are countries doing very well to limit the spread right now (including geographically large countries, or whatever other excuse for the US being “exceptional”). It just takes cooperation and a focused government providing doctors and citizens the resources they need. We are coming up on two weeks since developed countries in North America and Europe began implementing serious social distancing policies, and although it remains early days yet, there are clear trends showing that infection rates are stabilizing and, in several countries, showing modest declines. Social distancing, as imperfect as it may be, appears to be having a positive effect. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297/180 "2020-03-30T19:31:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree. Ex parte Milligan: [Ex parte Milligan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte_Milligan) > > Martial law may not be declared where civilian courts are open and may only be used in areas of military operations “where war really prevails.” > > If we want to say that this is “war” then get ready for martial law when we have a “war” on drugs, poverty, crime, etc. Maybe not where you are, but here civilian courts are closed and will be for some time. > [@Mijin](#): > > In fairness, this has been a surprising event in both speed and scope. > It’s not a new thing for the news to be warning us of some impending threat that’s coming to your neighborhood any day now…it’s another thing for it to actually happen. Not all that surprising. We started getting indications in December, followed by a freaking huge clue when China locked down an entire province. We have been talking about this for months and very little was done. Further, the CDC used to maintain an entire team to prep for this kind of thing, there are actually protocols that were not followed, the world has had several epidemics in the last few decades (not including AIDS, which is also a massive illustration of how to screw the pooch). (Sorry **Mijin** - I’m not upset at you, per se, I’m upset with all the people who still think this is a hoax, or only for the olds, or won’t effect them because no one they know is sick. Just ugh.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-to-me-why-what-we-are-doing-isnt-overreacting/850297.md?page=10)