# Can someone help me understand why Meng Wanzhou was arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 12, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012 "2018-12-12T19:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/21 "2018-12-14T12:40:31Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m not sure how this actually works. I was under the impression that to extradite someone, the act also had to be a crime in Canada. Perhaps, depending on the definition of the crime, it is? I’m not sure what the situation is with acts committed overseas against a bank with a presence (but not based) in Canada, with transactions that did not affect Canada. Obviously, the situation is not that simple, based on the fact that the extradition hearing seems to be turning out to be fairly lengthy. The crime in question is bank fraud. Pretty sure that’s also a crime in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/22 "2018-12-14T13:13:00Z")
I"ve not been able to find the actual charging document on-line (apparently it’s a warrant issued by the Federal Court of the Eastern District of New York, August 22, 2018). However, two of the documents filed by the defence in the Supreme Court of British Columbia have been posted on-line: [Read the court documents in the Meng Wanshou case](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/read-the-court-documents-in-the-meng-wanzhou-case-1.4211316). Paragraph 7 of the Factum states that she is charged in the US with “serious charges of fraud involving millions of dollars”. The allegation appears to be that by misrepresenting her company’s non-compliance with US sanctions laws, for the purpose of obtaining funding from a bank, she thereby committed a fraud on the bank. Fraud is certainly a criminal offence in Canada, so it meets the “double criminality” requirement of extradition laws. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/23 "2018-12-14T13:19:37Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m not sure how this actually works. I was under the impression that to extradite someone, the act also had to be a crime in Canada. Perhaps, depending on the definition of the crime, it is? I’m not sure what the situation is with acts committed overseas against a bank with a presence (but not based) in Canada, with transactions that did not affect Canada. Obviously, the situation is not that simple, based on the fact that the extradition hearing seems to be turning out to be fairly lengthy. It’s not that the act in question has to be a crime in Canada. That would actually give the Canadian courts jurisdiction to try the case themselves. The test is whether the offence alleged by the requesting country is also an offence in Canada. There’s no need that the alleged offence have any factual connection to Canada. So if someone in Canada is charged with murder in Australia, and the facts have no connection to Canada, Australia could still apply to have the person extradited, because murder is a crime in both Australia and Canada. That’s what the “double criminality” principle is about. As for why the US courts would have jurisdiction over a foreign national, it’s that she’s alleged to have committed an offence in the United States, namely the bank fraud. Being a foreign national doesn’t give you immunity from US laws in the US. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/24 "2018-12-14T15:46:18Z")
Thanks for the responses. So the alleged fraud from what I’m reading is misrepresenting the ownership/independence of the company making a loan or some such. I haven’t seen anything that suggests the company failed to pay what was owed, or otherwise got away with a lage sum. It simply would not have gotten that financial backing without the incorrect guarantee. So similarly, if I untruthfully tell the bank I make $300,000 a year to buy get a loan for a luxury automobile, but make all the requisite payments regardless, am I guilty of fraud? I always understood that defrauding involved theft using false pretenses instead of force or threats. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/25 "2018-12-14T16:03:45Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As for why the US courts would have jurisdiction over a foreign national, it’s that she’s alleged to have committed an offence in the United States, namely the bank fraud. Being a foreign national doesn’t give you immunity from US laws in the US. I can understand that. I just wasn’t aware she was ever actually IN the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/26 "2018-12-14T16:15:53Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > So similarly, if I untruthfully tell the bank I make $300,000 a year to buy get a loan for a luxury automobile, but make all the requisite payments regardless, am I guilty of fraud? Sure. If they’re approving the loan because you’ve convinced them that there’s a fully-insured $300,000 car out there that they can repossess and auction off if you stop making payments - but you’ve actually used the money to launch a super-sketchy business venture that has zero real property that (if you stop making payments) can be repossessed and auctioned off to cover their losses - then you’re exposing them to a financial risk that they didn’t sign up for. That’s fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/27 "2018-12-14T16:59:19Z")
Fun personal fact: I have dual US-UK citizenship, and live and work in the UK for an organization that on occasion has interaction with Russian-controlled firms. Under the current sanctions my organization is fine but because I hold a US passport I cannot personally be involved in any work directly related to those firms or both I and my organization could potentially be considered in violation of those sanctions. Fortunately these are not firms I usually work with and I’m not high enough in the food chain to make any larger policy or strategic decisions so it’s all a minor annoyance rather than a major problem, but these things are taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/28 "2018-12-14T17:49:31Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > So similarly, if I untruthfully tell the bank I make $300,000 a year to buy get a loan for a luxury automobile, but make all the requisite payments regardless, am I guilty of fraud? I always understood that defrauding involved theft using false pretenses instead of force or threats. You really got to watch the documentary _[Abacus: Small Enough to Jail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus:_Small_Enough_to_Jail)_. It’s about the only prosecution of a bank resulting from the real estate crash of 2008. Abacus was run by Asian-Americans who had a personal/cultural basis for how they decided to give out mortgages. The Feds didn’t like this and prosecuted them horribly. Total travesty of justice. The bankers were found not guilty. Bottom line: None of the FHA backed loans Abacus made went into default. OTOH, mega-banks who had huge numbers of properties foreclosed which ruined millions were treated with kid gloves. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/29 "2018-12-14T18:10:30Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Sure. If they’re approving the loan because you’ve convinced them that there’s a fully-insured $300,000 car out there that they can repossess and auction off if you stop making payments - but you’ve actually used the money to launch a super-sketchy business venture that has zero real property that (if you stop making payments) can be repossessed and auctioned off to cover their losses - then you’re exposing them to a financial risk that they didn’t sign up for. That’s fraud. I think if you lie on a loan app it’s fraud regardless of what you do with the money or even if there is collateral they can repossess. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/30 "2018-12-14T18:28:56Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I think if you lie on a loan app it’s fraud regardless of what you do with the money or even if there is collateral they can repossess. Agreed; I was responding to **md2000** ’s specific example (and I see now that I misread it as a luxury car worth $300,000, rather than lying about a $300,000 salary :smack:). Banks require borrowers to provide information that lets them (the bank) make a reasonable assessment of the risk involved. Any lie on the loan application hampers that risk assessment, and is rightly illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/31 "2018-12-14T18:48:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I can understand that. I just wasn’t aware she was ever actually IN the United States. I don’t know if she was ever in the States, but the application for loans appears to have been made to a bank in the States. US federal law asserts jurisdiction over people who direct crimes in the US, even if they’re not physically in the States. For example, there was Noriega, who was convicted of organising drug trafficking in the US, from Panama. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/32 "2018-12-14T19:06:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t know if she was ever in the States, but the application for loans appears to have been made to a bank in the States. > > US federal law asserts jurisdiction over people who direct crimes in the US, even if they’re not physically in the States. > > For example, there was Noriega, who was convicted of organising drug trafficking in the US, from Panama. Yes, I was wondering about Noriega when reading about this woman. Thanks for the info! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/33 "2018-12-14T19:07:41Z")
Thought I’d link to a China Uncensored video on this, though they are more talking about China threatening Canada than going into details about what the OP is asking. Still, it’s interesting if you want to see what China is up too. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRH3\_WgmFdU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRH3_WgmFdU) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/34 "2018-12-15T00:43:52Z")
[Good article](https://www.lawfareblog.com/detention-huaweis-cfo-legally-justified-why-doesnt-us-say-so) that explains the main questions being asked here. In particular, it explains the following key points: [ul] [li]Meng is not being charged with violating Iran sanctions, but with bank fraud. (_The misrepresentations she made to HSBC placed the bank in serious legal jeopardy, and carry a sentence of up to 30 years imprisonment._)[/li][/ul] [ul] [li]It is not improper to subject Meng and Huawei to U.S. sanctions laws. (_At least in part because Huawei purchases and resells substantial quantities of goods of US origin._)[/li][/ul] [ul] [li]Meng has received due process appropriate for an extradition proceeding. (_A matter of observable fact, and contrary to the posturing and retaliations by the Chinese, which is particularly hypocritical given their own human rights record. Moreover, those of Meng’s defenders who complained that the full reasons for the arrest were not initially disclosed appear to be ignorant of the fact that this was because Meng’s own lawyers requested a publication ban._)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/35 "2018-12-15T02:19:42Z")
Yes, and yet somehow Meng’s own affidavit and lawyer’s brief appeared on Scribd, as linked to in the CTV article. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/36 "2020-05-27T21:59:48Z")
The BC judge has ruled that the alleged misconduct by Meng meets the test of double criminality, as required by the law and extradition treaty. That is simply one step in the process. Next up is whether the evidence put forward by the US would meet the test of sufficient to warrant going to trial. [Huawei CFO's extradition hearing: B.C. judge finds double criminality in Meng Wanzhou case | CTV News](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/b-c-judge-finds-double-criminality-in-huawei-case-extradition-process-continues-for-meng-wanzhou-1.4956755) This hearing is going to take years. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/37 "2020-05-27T22:36:44Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The crime in question is bank fraud. Pretty sure that’s also a crime in Canada. Bingo! Which is what the court in Canada ruled this week. This sets up Wanzhou’s extradition to the US. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/38 "2020-05-28T03:28:52Z")
Huawei keeps getting touted as a poor little Chinese company being singled out by the US, and is a sign of the US afearing the rise of China. Huawei roots are that of Chinese military. They got their start re-engineering switching equipment from US companies and selling them to the third world. Their support for IP is _ahem_ lacking _ahem_. Let me say this a different way. When I worked at Lehman Brothers Hong Kong in 1996, even \*\*Lehman’s \*\*refused to do business with Huawei. Lehman’s had pitiful risk management and were known as bankers to the despots. The folks I worked with thought the risk was very high of getting kidnapped in China by Huawei and their military ties. Again, this is Lehman Brothers, refusing to do business with Huawei. That out to tell ya something. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/39 "2020-05-28T22:07:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The BC judge has ruled that the alleged misconduct by Meng meets the test of double criminality, as required by the law and extradition treaty. That is simply one step in the process. Next up is whether the evidence put forward by the US would meet the test of sufficient to warrant going to trial. > > [Huawei CFO's extradition hearing: B.C. judge finds double criminality in Meng Wanzhou case | CTV News](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/b-c-judge-finds-double-criminality-in-huawei-case-extradition-process-continues-for-meng-wanzhou-1.4956755) > > This hearing is going to take years. It’s just “one step in the process”, but the “double criminality” argument that the court rejected was considered by Meng’s legal team to be her best and strongest defense. In fact she and her friends and lawyers had a “celebration” and photo-op the day before the court ruling on the assumption the court would rule in her favour. The remaining lines of appeal, in comparison, are pretty weak. It would not entirely surprise me if she somehow slipped out of house arrest and made it back to China on a Huawei private jet. The ultimate extradition decision rests with the Minister of Justice, but I can hardly imagine him overriding a series of court rulings against Meng. I don’t know about “years”, but it’s certainly going to take a while before it gets to that point. Meanwhile we need to remember that she’s living in luxury in one of her two Vancouver mansions, while in retaliation two innocent Canadian businessmen have been behind bars in China for nearly a year and a half now. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012/40 "2020-05-29T18:18:20Z")
Years. It’s been close to 18 months now. When there is a decision, if it’s in favour of extradition it will definitely be appealed; if extradition is refused, feds may decide to appeal. That takes it to the BC Court of Appeal, which could take months, with a likely application for leave to the SCC. If leave is granted, likely a year there. If the courts uphold extradition, then the political decision for the federal Minister of Justice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-help-me-understand-why-meng-wanzhou-was-arrested/826012.md?page=3)