# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/181 "2017-09-08T05:32:28Z")
[Logan police didn’t push for blood draw, chief tells CNN after SLC mayor rebukes handling of officer’s leave](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/06/mayor-biskuski-police-officer-who-arrested-nurse-should-immediately-have-been-put-on-leave-br/) Mostly just a rehash except for > [@](#): > > Logan Police Chief Gary Jensen told CNN on Wednesday that Payne had called a Logan detective to say that he was having a tough time getting the blood. According to Jensen, the detective told Payne not to worry about it, because Logan could get the blood through other means. > > “He didn’t tell him you must cease and desist; he simply said, ‘Don’t worry about it, we’ll go another way,’” Jensen said in the CNN interview. “I just don’t believe [Payne’s] actions were in the best interest of the patient, the nurses or law enforcement, quite frankly. He could have just packed up and gone home.” But reading it did lead me to another hypothetical. Given that “blood cannot be taken by police from a patient unless the patient gives consent, is under arrest, or is under warrant for arrest.” What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent? I don’t doubt that defective Payne would have attempted to coerce cooperation, but failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released. Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/182 "2017-09-08T22:33:03Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Logan police didn’t push for blood draw, chief tells CNN after SLC mayor rebukes handling of officer’s leave](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/06/mayor-biskuski-police-officer-who-arrested-nurse-should-immediately-have-been-put-on-leave-br/) > Mostly just a rehash except for > But reading it did lead me to another hypothetical. Given that “blood cannot be taken by police from a patient unless the patient gives consent, is under arrest, or is under warrant for arrest.” What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent? I don’t doubt that defective Payne would have attempted to coerce cooperation, but failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released. Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order. It’s interesting to see the bodycam footage of Payne and Tracy calmly discussing how they’re going to extricate themselves from the clusterfuck they caused. They’re clearly hoping that if they release Wubbels and get the hell out of there, the whole mess will go away. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/183 "2017-09-08T22:58:58Z")
Here is Officer Payne’s [full body cam video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Piuenvb-Zg). What is more offensive to me-even more offensive than his ignorance of the laws he is supposed to enforce-is how he bullies and threatens this nurse before physically assaulting her. The nurse is clearly terrified as you can see her hands shaking as she holds the paper reading the policy agreed upon between SLCPD and the Hospital. At 14:52 or so on the video, you hear another officer asking how things have panned out when this same situation has come up in the past. And Jeff Payne can be heard saying “I’ve run into similar things, but they end up consenting. It’s never gone this far.” So they are in the habit of bullying hospital personnel into breaking the law by threatening to take them to jail. Unfuckingbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/184 "2017-09-08T23:18:38Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > But reading it did lead me to another hypothetical. Given that “blood cannot be taken by police from a patient unless the patient gives consent, is under arrest, or is under warrant for arrest.” What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent? I don’t doubt that defective Payne would have attempted to coerce cooperation, but failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released. Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order. This was posted above: > [@](#): > > As written, Utah’s law only permits an officer to conduct such a test where he has reasonable grounds to believe that a person from whom blood is to be taken was driving “while in violation of” the laws regarding driving under the influence of alcohol or other substances. > **[Paul Cassell: Cop who arrested nurse was wrong, but the law is complicated](https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/)** > > By now, just about everyone with a smart phone or a laptop has seen the video of the Salt Lake City police detective arresting a nurse for following University Hospital policy prohibiting blood draws in certain situations. The actions of the... The nurse was right, but for the wrong reason. The reason the draw was unjustified was the lack of reasonable grounds to think the driver was driving under the influence. If a cop has that, they can draw blood even without a warrant. The bigger question to me is that even if the police have that right, where do they get their authority to force a nurse to do the blood draw. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/185 "2017-09-09T00:15:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The bigger question to me is that even if the police have that right, where do they get their authority to force a nurse to do the blood draw. The cop was a licensed phlebotomist. I’ve been assuming he was actually going to do the blood draw himself, he just need the nurse to give him access to the patient. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/186 "2017-09-09T02:47:10Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Here is Officer Payne’s [full body cam video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Piuenvb-Zg). What is more offensive to me-even more offensive than his ignorance of the laws he is supposed to enforce-is how he bullies and threatens this nurse before physically assaulting her. The nurse is clearly terrified as you can see her hands shaking as she holds the paper reading the policy agreed upon between SLCPD and the Hospital. Utah police and policy makers have both talked up their programs for deescalation and this is a training video of how to escalate a situation. The nurse is clearly scared and says she wants someone to be with her. At one point, another hospital employee takes the nurse into an unused room – with an open door – apparently to help calm the situation. Payne follows right along with her. He’s putting a lot of pressure on her constantly. She’s constantly asking why he’s being so threatening. This is just simply wrong. It seem to me that he’s simply power hungry. Someone has threatened his authority and he’s going to make her pay. He sounds downright happy that she’s supposed to be arrested. There simply is no reason for him to drag her out of the ER. He reports to the lieutenant that he had and there is absolutely no concern about the necessity of it. When she prints out the paper, she clearly points out that the police department and the hospital have agreed to the policy, but he’s not listening. Nor does he go back to his watch commander for the clarification. He didn’t inform his boss about Logan PD not caring about the blood draw, either. He just keeps insisting that she’s going to jail. Someone talks upstream about the officer’s adrenaline rush from witnessing the crash. He wasn’t of course, but he does get into an adrenaline rush during the arrest. You can hear his heavy breathing. You would think he just nabbed a murderer. The lieutenant is a complete dick. He accuses her of not trying to understand or to discuss, when it’s Payne and the dick who are refusing to be reasonable. > [@](#): > > At 14:52 or so on the video, you hear another officer asking how things have panned out when this same situation has come up in the past. And Jeff Payne can be heard saying “I’ve run into similar things, but they end up consenting. It’s never gone this far.” So they are in the habit of bullying hospital personnel into breaking the law by threatening to take them to jail. Unfuckingbelievable. Yup. And this is why the guy needs to have criminal charges brought against him. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/187 "2017-09-09T03:34:56Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Logan police didn’t push for blood draw, chief tells CNN after SLC mayor rebukes handling of officer’s leave](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/06/mayor-biskuski-police-officer-who-arrested-nurse-should-immediately-have-been-put-on-leave-br/) > Mostly just a rehash except for > But reading it did lead me to another hypothetical. Given that “blood cannot be taken by police from a patient unless the patient gives consent, is under arrest, or is under warrant for arrest.” What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent? I don’t doubt that defective Payne would have attempted to coerce cooperation, but failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released. Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order. A few misconceptions here. “What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent?” Happens all the time. The officer either has to arrest the patient (which is usually what happens) or get a warrant. The difference here is that the officer was trying to get a sample from someone who clearly hadn’t done anything wrong. “…failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released.” Being in “custody” has nothing to do with being in the hospital. The officer can arrest someone who is being treated in the hospital and the patient is then in custody of the police. That doesn’t affect his stay in the hospital. The officer can’t take the patient out of the hospital until the patient is released by the hospital (discharged). If the police bring someone into the hospital for care, they aren’t taking him out of there until he has been medically cleared (discharged). " Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order." The don’t remove them with a court order, they take them after the patient has been medically cleared. We _are_ able to determine with reasonable certainty if someone is faking most things. This is from the nurse’s perspective. A LEO may have a different take. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/188 "2017-09-09T03:47:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This was posted above: > > [Paul Cassell: Cop who arrested nurse was wrong, but the law is complicated](http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/) > > \*\*The nurse was right, but for the wrong reason. The reason the draw was unjustified was the lack of reasonable grounds to think the driver was driving under the influence. If a cop has that, they can draw blood even without a warrant. > \*\* > The bigger question to me is that even if the police have that right, where do they get their authority to force a nurse to do the blood draw. No. The nurse was right because none of the three required conditions had been met. 1. Consent 2. Arrest 3. Warrant The nurse has absolutely nothing to do with “reasonable grounds” etc. She wasn’t there and that isn’t her job or area of expertise. The second sentence “If a cop has…” is also wrong. He NEEDS one of those three things. Not “reasonable grounds”. He will usually first try for consent, failing that he will arrest the person. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/189 "2017-09-09T16:34:08Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > No. The nurse was right because none of the three required conditions had been met. > > 1. Consent > 2. Arrest > 3. Warrant > > The nurse has absolutely nothing to do with “reasonable grounds” etc. She wasn’t there and that isn’t her job or area of expertise. > > The second sentence “If a cop has…” is also wrong. He NEEDS one of those three things. Not “reasonable grounds”. He will usually first try for consent, failing that he will arrest the person. While I appreciate the legal opinion, I think I’m going to go with the law professor at the University of Utah over some rando on the internet. > [@Miller](#): > > The cop was a licensed phlebotomist. I’ve been assuming he was actually going to do the blood draw himself, he just need the nurse to give him access to the patient. Ah, that’s much shakier for the nurse. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/190 "2017-09-09T17:40:25Z")
> [@treis](#): > > While I appreciate the legal opinion, I think I’m going to go with the law professor at the University of Utah over some rando on the internet. But that law professor’s article also says this : > [@](#): > > Just last year, the U.S. Supreme Court favorably discussed such implied consent laws. In Birchfield v. North Dakota, the court struck down a North Dakota implied consent law – but only on the narrow ground that North Dakota had provided a criminal penalty for those who refused to consent to a blood draw. The court noted that its previous decisions had “referred approvingly to the general concept of implied-consent laws that impose civil penalties and evidentiary consequences on motorists who refuse to comply” and “nothing we say here should be read to cast doubt on them.” Utah’s implied consent law only imposes civil penalties (such as suspension of driver’s license) and thus is constitutional. It’s talking about the penalties imposed under an implied consent law for _refusing_ to consent - which implies that the police cannot take the person’s blood without their actual consent - unless of course, he is under arrest or they have a warrant. If the police can draw the blood without the person’s consent, there isn’t any need for a penalty when he refuses to consent. > [@](#): > > Ah, that’s much shakier for the nurse. Not really. Unless there is some other law which somehow requires hospitals to allow give police access to patients who are not in their custody and for whom the police don’t have a warrant nor any reason to believe he has committed a crime - and there isn’t one. The Fourth amendment wouldn’t allow it. The nurse would have to give them access in the same circumstances that I would have to give them access if they knocked on my door wanting access to my son to draw his blood. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/191 "2017-09-09T17:41:40Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > No. The nurse was right because none of the three required conditions had been met. > > 1. Consent > 2. Arrest > 3. Warrant > > The nurse has absolutely nothing to do with “reasonable grounds” etc. She wasn’t there and that isn’t her job or area of expertise. > > The second sentence “If a cop has…” is also wrong. He NEEDS one of those three things. Not “reasonable grounds”. He will usually first try for consent, failing that he will arrest the person. > [@treis](#): > > While I appreciate the legal opinion, I think I’m going to go with the law professor at the University of Utah over some rando on the internet. The point I believe you are missing is that IF the cop had reasonable grounds to believe that a person from whom blood is to be taken was driving under the influence, THAT would have been probable cause for a warrant. It is not up to a nurse to decide if his grounds are reasonable, that is the job of a judge and if a judge agreed with him, he would have granted him a warrant, so \*\*steatopygia \*\*is 100% correct. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/192 "2017-09-09T18:27:41Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But that law professor’s article also says this : > > It’s talking about the penalties imposed under an implied consent law for _refusing_ to consent - which implies that the police cannot take the person’s blood without their actual consent - unless of course, he is under arrest or they have a warrant. If the police can draw the blood without the person’s consent, there isn’t any need for a penalty when he refuses to consent. > [@Enola Gay](#): > > The point I believe you are missing is that IF the cop had reasonable grounds to believe that a person from whom blood is to be taken was driving under the influence, THAT would have been probable cause for a warrant. It is not up to a nurse to decide if his grounds are reasonable, that is the job of a judge and if a judge agreed with him, he would have granted him a warrant, so steatopygia is 100% correct. > [@](#): > > Utah’s law only permits an officer to conduct such a test where he has reasonable grounds to believe that a person from whom blood is to be taken was driving “while in violation of” the laws regarding driving under the influence of alcohol or other substances > **[Paul Cassell: Cop who arrested nurse was wrong, but the law is complicated](https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/)** > > By now, just about everyone with a smart phone or a laptop has seen the video of the Salt Lake City police detective arresting a nurse for following University Hospital policy prohibiting blood draws in certain situations. The actions of the... The law professor clearly states the requirement for a police officer to do a blood draw. It does not include arrest or a warrant. > [@doreen](#): > > Not really. Unless there is some other law which somehow requires hospitals to allow give police access to patients who are not in their custody and for whom the police don’t have a warrant nor any reason to believe he has committed a crime - and there isn’t one. The Fourth amendment wouldn’t allow it. The nurse would have to give them access in the same circumstances that I would have to give them access if they knocked on my door wanting access to my son to draw his blood. Falls under exigent circumstances exception to the 4th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/193 "2017-09-09T19:56:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [Paul Cassell: Cop who arrested nurse was wrong, but the law is complicated](http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/) > > The law professor clearly states the requirement for a police officer to do a blood draw. It does not include arrest or a warrant. The law professor’s article does not explicitly address what I am talking about which is whether the officer can forcibly draw blood from a person who is refusing. [Here](https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S520.html?v=C41-6a-S520_1800010118000101) is the text of Utah’s implied consent law. You will notice that no part of it states that the officer can draw blood even if the person refuses to submit to the test and the following is the procedure to be followed when a person refuses to submit. > [@](#): > > (2)(a) A peace officer requesting a test or tests shall warn a person that refusal to submit to the test or tests may result in revocation of the person’s license to operate a motor vehicle, a five or 10 year prohibition of driving with any measurable or detectable amount of alcohol in the person’s body depending on the person’s prior driving history, and a three-year prohibition of driving without an ignition interlock device if the person: > (i) has been placed under arrest; > (ii) has then been requested by a peace officer to submit to any one or more of the chemical tests under Subsection (1); and > (iii) refuses to submit to any chemical test requested. You will notice that it does not say the officer will draw the blood even if the person refuses to submit. But the article does explicitly say > [@](#): > > Utah’s implied consent law did not authorize this particular blood draw under these particular circumstances. because the officers did not have reasonable cause to believe that the patient was driving under the influence of alcohol or other substances in violation of the law. > [@treis](#): > > Falls under exigent circumstances exception to the 4th amendment. Which requires an imminent danger to a person or serious damage to property, or pursing a fleeing suspect or reason to believe that evidence will be destroyed and possibly a couple of other situations - none of which applied in this case and all of which would have involved a crime being committed by the person whose blood was sought. (as his blood would not have been evidence of a crime committed by someone else).The police did not believe the patient committed a crime, so they could not have feared evidence would be destroyed (and if they had, they would have arrested him and the nurse would have allowed the blood draw) There was no danger to a person or property, and he didn’t run into the hospital while the police were in hot pursuit of him. Remember, this guy was the victim of the person the police were chasing and the police had no reason to believe he had done anything wring. They claimed they wanted the blood to prove he _wasn’t_ driving under the influence (which I don’t believe for a minute)- and that is not an acceptable reason to draw blood under either Utah’s implied consent law or the Fourth amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/194 "2017-09-09T21:14:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [Paul Cassell: Cop who arrested nurse was wrong, but the law is complicated](http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/) > > The law professor clearly states the requirement for a police officer to do a blood draw. It does not include arrest or a warrant. > > Falls under exigent circumstances exception to the 4th amendment. You are incorrect. Again IF the officer had reasonable grounds to believe the driver was impaired, that would represent probable cause, and judge would grant him a warrant. He doesn’t just waltz into a hospital and declare that he has reasonable grounds for a blood draw & have that honored…he doesn’t have that authority. A judge gets to decide if his grounds are reasonable, and if the judge agrees, he issues a warrant. > [@](#): > > Was the Detective Correct About His Authority? > > No, he was not. Without mincing words, there does not seem to be a legal justification under Utah law for Payne’s assertions that he had authority to draw the unconscious patient’s blood without a warrant. > > The Fourth Amendment protects “[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons … against unreasonable searches and seizures.” > > The Supreme Court has routinely upheld the principle that warrantless searches are per se unreasonable unless they fall into one of several narrow exceptions. Essentially, where police can feasibly obtain a warrant prior to conducting a search, they should. > > It is a longstanding rule that drawing blood is a “search” within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. Why? Because in the language of Missouri v. McNeely, “an invasion of bodily integrity implicates an individual’s most personal and deep-rooted expectations of privacy.” > > In the 2016 decision in Birchfield v. North Dakota, the Supreme Court reinforced its disfavor for warrantless blood draws. It struck down state “implied consent” laws criminalizing a DUI suspect’s refusal to submit to mandated blood testing, stating only the most exigent of circumstances could allow for the warrantless invocation of such an invasive procedure. > > It is likely that Payne was referring to these unconstitutional laws when he stated he had “implied consent” from the patient. This invalid defense is even more disconcerting given the fact that the patient at issue was not even suspected of a crime, much less under arrest for driving while intoxicated. > > Even if implied consent laws were still valid post-Birchfield, they would hardly be applicable in this situation. > > Without a warrant, there are two ways Payne could have legally conducted a search of Wubbel’s patient. First, the patient could voluntarily allow his blood to be drawn. But because the patient was unconscious, this wasn’t feasible. > > Second, as Payne suggests in the video, there is an exception for “exigent circumstances.” > > This exception, outlined in Schmerber v. California, requires probable cause to place the patient under arrest for a crime, and a reasonable belief that delaying the search to obtain a warrant would destroy evidence of that crime. > > But Payne readily admitted the patient was not under arrest and was not suspected of a crime. Further, the only criminal suspect in the crash was dead. > > It remains unclear why officers thought a test for illicit substances from the victim was needed for a criminal investigation, or whether there was probable cause to believe such substances would be found. Payne can be heard repeatedly stating it was “to protect the patient.” > > Taking Payne at his word, these good intentions are not enough to justify a very personal invasion of privacy by a government official on an unconscious patient. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/195 "2017-09-10T06:05:25Z")
There are a couple of interesting articles in the local paper. The first is Payne’s attorney in[spin mode](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/09/slc-detectives-attorney-says-officer-wanted-blood-drawn-to-help-the-unconscious-patient-keep-his-commercial-driver-license/): > [@](#): > > An attorney representing Salt Lake City police Detective Jeff Payne said Friday that his client wanted a blood sample from an unconscious semi driver who had been admitted to University Hospital so the injured man could keep his commercial driver license. > > Attorney Greg Skordas said Friday that a federal regulation requires a blood sample when a driver with a commercial driver license (CDL) is involved in a fatal accident, and that Logan police had asked Payne get the sample. By getting a CDL, a driver is assumed to have consented to a blood draw, Skordas said. Naturally, the attorney failed to address any of the sticky points and the paper failed to ask why this guy keep insisting on being an out-of-control brute despite Logan PD having already told him that it was no longer necessary. Second, it appears that some people are making [death threats](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/09/watch-commander-on-duty-during-nurse-arrest-has-been-placed-on-leave-attorney-says-hes-received-death-threats-and-asks-for-patience/) against the watch commander. > [@](#): > > Defense attorney Edward Brass confirmed Friday that the other officer on leave is Payne’s watch commander, Lt. James Tracy. > > Brass, who is representing Tracy with co-counsel Kim Cordova, said Friday evening that it’s clear people have had an “intense” reaction to the video showing the nurse‘s arrest. The lieutenant, he said, has shut down his social media accounts after receiving death threats. His adult son, too, has been the subject of threatening messages. > > The defense attorney said that as the district attorney’s office has asked for the public’s patience as several investigations move forward, he asks for that same respect for Tracy. This is unfortunate. Mob mentality can be quite ugly. In the article: > [@](#): > > Tracy came to the hospital after Wubbels’ arrest and scolded the nurse, according to the footage, telling her she was trying to give “legal defense” and was interfering with Payne doing his job. In the video, the lieutenant tells Wubbels that the patient they want blood from is a victim in the crash and they are “trying to find out if there is anything in his system.” > > The nurse responds by telling Tracy that he has already been given pain medication, which would show up in the blood draw. > > “If we’re breaking the law,” Tracy tells Wubbels, “If we’re doing wrong, there are civil remedies. It’s called taking fruit of the poisonous tree. If we took his blood illegally, it all goes away, alright? So there are civil remedies.” This is one of the points which really annoys and angers me. To the police here, they are simply looking at this as something that they don’t care if it’s illegal because there is no punishment for them. If they can’t use it, they can’t use it. No harm, no foul. Despite a completely unnecessary – and possibly illegal-- violent arrest, it’s the victim’s fault here. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/196 "2017-09-10T07:12:06Z")
Has anyone started a pool for the outcome here? I’ll go with the usual outcome. Payne resigns or retires to avoid being fired. Quietly takes a job with another department after the public loses interest in him. Same for Lt. Tracy or maybe he takes a demotion. No charges filed to the surprise of no one. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/197 "2017-09-10T07:33:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Payne’s actions certainly reflected badly on Gold Cross. I wouldn’t mind if he had kept that job though, since I don’t think there is potential there for violating patients’ rights. But he should definitely be fired from the police force. How much choice did they have, realistically? He’s a walking liability in any kind of medical job now. Even without the discussion they said they fired him for, there’s a video of him committing an act of violence against a medical professional in a medical facility, in order to gain access to a patient against whom he intended to commit another act of violence. If he ever so much as sneezed on the job, there would be ample evidence showing that they continued to employ someone they _knew_ to be abusive to both medical workers and patients. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/198 "2017-09-12T03:14:08Z")
[FBI probing Utah cop who arrested nurse for refusing to draw blood](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fbi-probing-utah-arrested-nurse-refusing-draw-blood-article-1.3481922) > [@](#): > > Barker stressed that a “color of law” review, which examines whether law enforcement officials exceeded their authority, was a preliminary step that may or may not lead to a formal investigation. > > “Color of law” violations include false arrest and the use of excessive force by police, according to the FBI’s website. I don’t really expect much in the way of updates until everyone’s investigations are complete. About the only significant news I’d expect before the official reports would be my previously suggested resignation/retirement announcements. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/199 "2017-09-12T04:28:52Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Has anyone started a pool for the outcome here? I’ll go with the usual outcome. > > Payne resigns or retires to avoid being fired. Quietly takes a job with another department after the public loses interest in him. > > Same for Lt. Tracy or maybe he takes a demotion. > > No charges filed to the surprise of no one. I hope you end up being wrong, but I’m not very confident that you will be. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/200 "2017-09-12T05:22:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I hope you end up being wrong, but I’m not very confident that you will be. Off all the recent incidents of police misconduct, this one may have the best opportunity to result in stronger actions. Absolutely no guarantees, but it may be possible. Factors. Victim is a blond female. In some parallel universe, black males lives are equally as important, but we ain’t there yet. Victim is a nurse. Probably even more sympathetic than even an elderly lady driving home from Sunday School. No one is going to be testing her for illegal drugs. It’s a damn good bet that she doesn’t use them, but still there isn’t any possible doubts to bring up. It’s not a traffic stop and there simply isn’t even a manufactured reason for Payne to react with such violence. Payne made enough incriminating comments on tape which could tip the scale if it’s close. Still all told, I have no idea how it will play out. I also fear that there won’t be any serious consequences. He’s lost his ambulance job and that may be the harshest punishment he will face. Given his age at close to 60ish, it may be harder for him to get another police job. Or, we could be surprised and see some actual justice, but I’m not holding my breath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=11)