# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/201 "2017-09-15T00:23:23Z")
Looks like internal affairs wasn’t too impressed by the cop’s, or the Lt’s, behavior. [Internal Affairs Report Blasts Detective Jeff Payne for Arrest of Nurse Alex Wubbels](http://www.newser.com/story/248615/internal-affairs-report-slams-officer-who-arrested-nurse.html) ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/202 "2017-09-15T01:17:38Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Victim is a blond female. In some parallel universe, black males lives are equally as important, but we ain’t there yet. > > Victim is a nurse. Probably even more sympathetic than even an elderly lady driving home from Sunday School. She’s also a former Olympian, having represented the USA in the 1998 and 2002 Winter Games. Can’t get any more apple pie than that. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/203 "2017-09-15T01:30:06Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Looks like internal affairs wasn’t too impressed by the cop’s, or the Lt’s, behavior. [Internal Affairs Report Blasts Detective Jeff Payne for Arrest of Nurse Alex Wubbels](http://www.newser.com/story/248615/internal-affairs-report-slams-officer-who-arrested-nurse.html) \*… violated five departmental policies, including \*\*courtesy \*\* in public contacts and **conduct unbecoming** of an officer. Payne’s behavior was “ **inappropriate** , **unreasonable** , **unwarranted** , **discourteous** , **disrespectful** ” and showed “ **extremely poor professional judgment** ,” investigators wrote. \* Damn, someone broke out the thesaurus. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/204 "2017-09-15T02:01:11Z")
The Salt Lake Tribune has [an article](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/13/slc-mayor-to-announce-findings-of-investigations-into-police-officers-who-arrested-nurse/) which includes links to the internal investigation reports (pdf) for both [Detective Payne](https://ja.scribd.com/document/358844101/Detective-Jeff-Payne-internal-affairs-investigation#fullscreen&from_embed) and [Lt. Tracy](https://ja.scribd.com/document/358843661/Lt-James-Tracy-internal-affairs-investigation#fullscreen&from_embed). What is more interesting is the [Civilian Review](https://ja.scribd.com/document/358841091/Civilian-Review-Board-investigation-into-Salt-Lake-City-police-officers-involved-in-the-arrest-of-Utah-nurse-Alex-Wubbels#fullscreen&from_embed), which has redacted some parts, but finds that the officers did screw up. From the Trib article. > [@](#): > > The Civilian Review Board began its probe Sept. 1, led by its administrator/investigator, who is a former FBI agent. The board found Tracy violated his duties as a watch commander, according to department policy. And the review found Payne violated three department policies, including public courtesy, an obligation to abide by policy and orders, and blood draw procedures. Article: > [@](#): > > It also outlines how Payne visibly “lost control of his emotions” and his “self-control” over the course of the incident — yet no other law enforcement officers at the scene, including those from Salt Lake City and the University of Utah, thought to intervene. Some interesting parts including the review board believes that Payne allowed himself to get too agitated and that other officers failed to utilize the deescalation policies. It may be possible that there will be real consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/205 "2017-09-15T02:32:20Z")
IIRC, the moment Payne completely flipped out was when the person on the phone told him that he was making a huge mistake. Guess phone person was right. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/206 "2017-09-15T02:44:56Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > IIRC, the moment Payne completely flipped out was when the person on the phone told him that he was making a huge mistake. > > Guess phone person was right. The Civilian Review investigation mentions Payne possibly unhappy with “contempt of cop.” Could be. That just seems to be his driving force, he was really unhappy people were telling him no. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/207 "2017-09-15T03:16:59Z")
Just from a healthcare standpoint it seems to me potentially dangerous to be poking holes in people who are burn victims. Not to mention the unconscious victim probably could use as much of his blood on the inside rather than having it unnecessarily removed. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/208 "2017-09-15T08:39:22Z")
The Tribune has [another article](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/15/university-of-utah-police-chief-admits-his-department-could-have-stepped-up-instead-of-standing-by-during-nurses-arrest/) concerning this aftermath. Payne’s attorney believes that the department will discipline his client based on the scathing report (linked above) > [@](#): > > “They can justify major discipline with this report when it‘s not warranted here,” Skordas said, adding he believes the conclusion of the report would have been less scathing had the videos not been released publicly. > > Skordas, however, acknowledged his client should face some consequences for his actions. > > “He made a terrible mistake,” the attorney said. “But let‘s not overstate it because it’s become a YouTube sensation.” ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/209 "2017-09-15T11:15:17Z")
Coincidentally enough, there was [a rerun of _ER_](http://er.wikia.com/wiki/Obstruction_of_Justice) on yesterday that features something similar to this. A policeman is demanding a blood test from a patient, Doctor Carter tells him to come back with a warrant. He comes back with a warrant, then demands to also get the stomach contents from a bedpan where the guy had thrown up. Carter asks if that is in the warrant–it isn’t, Carter dumps it down a sink. Cop arrests Carter, handcuffs him, takes him to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/210 "2017-09-15T15:04:14Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “They can justify major discipline with this report when it‘s not warranted here,” Skordas said, adding he believes the conclusion of the report would have been less scathing had the videos not been released publicly. Translated: Unfortunately there is a video proving how bone deep stupid my client was and if it hadn’t been made public we would have been able to gloss over his raging incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/211 "2017-09-15T15:33:31Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Translated: > Unfortunately there is a video proving how bone deep stupid my client was and if it hadn’t been made public we would have been able to gloss over his raging incompetence. …as usual. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/212 "2017-09-15T15:37:49Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The Civilian Review investigation mentions Payne possibly unhappy with “contempt of cop.” Could be. > > That just seems to be his driving force, he was really unhappy people were telling him no. Now we know where Eric Cartman moved when he grew up. :smack: > [@Projammer](#): > > Translated: > Unfortunately there is a video proving how bone deep stupid my client was and if it hadn’t been made public we would have been able to gloss over his raging incompetence. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for those meddling Youtubers! ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/213 "2017-09-15T15:41:53Z")
As for the other cops on the scene I get the impression that at least one of them was trying to convince him not to go through with the arrest, and more to the point when you’re in a situation like that it can be dangerous for police not to show a united front. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/214 "2017-09-15T15:51:59Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > As for the other cops on the scene I get the impression that at least one of them was trying to convince him not to go through with the arrest, and more to the point when you’re in a situation like that it can be dangerous for police not to show a united front. How would it have been dangerous for the police to be more committed to following the law than covering for their colleagues illegal behavior in this situation. I can kinda get where one police has started threatening lethal force against a suspect, then other officers need to as well, even if they disagree with the need for it, because that officer has escalated the situation to that level, but there was no potential for any sort of harm to befall any of the officers, not physical harm, anyway. If showing a united front is to protect the pride of a misbehaving officer, then that presents far more of a danger to the community they are supposed to protect than admitting that they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/215 "2017-09-15T17:18:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How would it have been dangerous for the police to be more committed to following the law than covering for their colleagues illegal behavior in this situation. > > I can kinda get where one police has started threatening lethal force against a suspect, then other officers need to as well, even if they disagree with the need for it, because that officer has escalated the situation to that level, but there was no potential for any sort of harm to befall any of the officers, not physical harm, anyway. If showing a united front is to protect the pride of a misbehaving officer, then that presents far more of a danger to the community they are supposed to protect than admitting that they are wrong. It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/216 "2017-09-15T17:24:18Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. Then that is a problem with their training. If their leader is creating the tense situation, and being the impetus behind ever level of escalation, then they need to learn to think for themselves, and realize that what is happening here is not right, that what they are doing is violating the rights of those they are interacting with, that the actions that they are attempting will damage relations between the police and the community, then their training needs to teach them how to step up and intervene when their leader is the one who is the problem in the situation. If they can’t do that, then they aren’t really promoting law and order. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/217 "2017-09-16T07:48:14Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. I encourage you to read the report by the Police Civilian Review Board, linked in my post above. As part of their formal deescalation program, the SLCPD specifically has implemented an informal intervention code (Code 909) which is to be used when an officer recognizes that another officer has become “frustrated” and to temporarily take over while the agitated officer calms down. This is to allow officers to help each other before the situation gets out of hand and an officer does something to jeopardize their career. While noting some of his actions, the reports faults a back up officer “W” for not intervening more forcefully with Payne, although they acknowledge it’s a difficult choice to make. By not intervening, W allowed Payne to really fuck up.\* \*Not the exact wording of the report, although it would have been refreshing. Something similar happened in airline training, where people had to be taught to express concerns to the pilot. And [the Trib](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/16/slcpd-detective-who-arrested-nurse-had-been-disciplined-for-alleged-sexual-harassment-and-other-violations-records-show/) reports that Payne had received letters of reprimand for sexual harassment and violating police policies. He also did have a number of commendations. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/218 "2017-09-21T19:33:28Z")
[Utah cop wants to apologize for cuffing nurse](http://nypost.com/2017/09/20/utah-cop-wants-to-apologize-for-cuffing-nurse/) > [@](#): > > “Jeff would love the chance to sit down and apologize for what happened here,” attorney Greg Skordas said about his client, Detective Jeff Payne, KUTV reported. > > “If he could do this over he would do it over differently,” he added. “There is no question that Jeff made a mistake. I can understand the public being upset this was a troubling event.” Maybe do a couple of verses of Kumbaya. Or Hakuna Matata. Also, > [@](#): > > He also said there was more to the nurse’s arrest story than meets the eye. > > “There is the side of this that Jeff would like to tell at some point and I think that will happen,” Skordas said, KUTV reported. “I think he would love the chance to talk to people about what happened and why it happened and how he would do it differently.” I neglected earlier to include my usual prediction of a round of blame-the-victim. I’ll try to do better next time. Anyone want to offer bets on there being a next time? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/219 "2017-09-22T00:23:06Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Utah cop wants to apologize for cuffing nurse](http://nypost.com/2017/09/20/utah-cop-wants-to-apologize-for-cuffing-nurse/) > > Maybe do a couple of verses of Kumbaya. Or Hakuna Matata. > > Also, > I neglected earlier to include my usual prediction of a round of blame-the-victim. I’ll try to do better next time. Anyone want to offer bets on there being a next time? **Projammer** , We’re done! I SAID WE’RE DONE!!! Now you STFU about all this ‘blaming the victim’ BS or I’ll shut it for you!!! (that’s my Jeff Payne impersonation, in case you couldn’t tell) P.S. My wager is that the ‘next time’ will be within the next 5-30 days. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/220 "2017-09-27T13:58:50Z")
Sadly, it appears that the victim of the crash [has died](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/27/the-patient-a-utah-nurse-protected-before-her-high-profile-arrest-dies/?utm_term=.281fc99bafdb). Not surprisingly, the Salt Lake Police Association [isn’t happy](https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45937619&nid=148) with the bod cam not getting [del]buried forever[/del] withheld until after all the investigations are completed. But we all know whose fault it is, [according to](https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45952173) the Association president > [@](#): > > He also noted that "any resisting of arrest, it’s embarrassing and it does not look good. Well, not really as bad as arresting and roughing up a nurse. It’s embarrassing and it does not look good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=12)