# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/221 "2017-09-27T20:50:50Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. So “just following orders”? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/222 "2017-09-27T22:23:44Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So “just following orders”? Well it worked at Nuremberg didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/223 "2017-09-28T22:08:40Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So “just following orders”? I could be wrong but no crimes against humanity took place in this case, rather it was an inappropriate arrest. Nothing really happened except a nurse was scared, handcuffed and put in a police car for less than an hour. Don’t get me wrong the cop was completely in the wrong but let’s not throw sense out the window. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/224 "2017-09-28T22:30:46Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I could be wrong but no crimes against humanity took place in this case, rather it was an inappropriate arrest. Nothing really happened except a nurse was scared, handcuffed and put in a police car for less than an hour. A) “Nothing really”? B) So the other cops had no responsibility defusing the situation 'cause who gives a fuck if the police make an innocent nurse scared, handcuff her and falsely imprison her for an hour. “Just following orders” is fine in that case? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/225 "2017-09-28T22:36:01Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > let’s not throw sense out the window. Where the hell is your sense of disproportionate response??? What is this country coming to if we can’t ruin someone’s life **forever** because they made a bad mistake with significant but ultimately limited consequences? 😕 Seriously, I think we need to use incidents like this to shine light on the fact that our police are more our masters than our servants these days, and use the episode to work to change that. But Godwinizing the culprit is just stupid. Let him suffer the logical consequences of his behavior, pay whatever debt is deemed proper, and pursue a career in retail sales or something. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/226 "2017-09-28T22:59:03Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > A) “Nothing really”? > > B) So the other cops had no responsibility defusing the situation 'cause who gives a fuck if the police make an innocent nurse scared, handcuff her and falsely imprison her for an hour. “Just following orders” is fine in that case? I’m saying that there was next to nothing the other officers could have done in the moment that the shit hit the fan. They had imperfect knowledge of what was happening and to get into another cops face at the moment of crisis can be very dangerous. Cops have to show a united front to the outside world and if they all start arguing in front of the public it can lead to very bad situations. However once she had been arrested it is perfectly acceptable to take the guy aside and try and convince him to do the right thing. Even before the arrest one of the other officers was warning that he didn’t think the arrest would stick. I suspect more of this sort of talk happened afterwards which is why she was released. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/227 "2017-09-29T15:53:31Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I’m saying that there was next to nothing the other officers could have done in the moment that the shit hit the fan. They had imperfect knowledge of what was happening and to get into another cops face at the moment of crisis can be very dangerous. Cops have to show a united front to the outside world and if they all start arguing in front of the public it can lead to very bad situations. > > However once she had been arrested it is perfectly acceptable to take the guy aside and try and convince him to do the right thing. > > Even before the arrest one of the other officers was warning that he didn’t think the arrest would stick. I suspect more of this sort of talk happened afterwards which is why she was released. > > Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk And I might be tempted to agree with you IF cops were actually held accountable for when they fuck up big time like this. Admit it - in the civilian world a mess up would cost you your job almost immediately. Whith cops it is swept under the rug or at best they get a paid vacation while it is investigated. Maybe the victim gets an apology and the officer takes a one-day sensitivity training. In fact - until the video went viral that’s EXACTLY what happened here. So why not terrorize the nurse if you think there are no consequences. Even look at your example, was he trying to defuse the situation? Was he telling his partner not to terrorize the nurse? That you don’t treat the public that way? No - it was whether the arrest would stick. So yeah, maybe it’s not North Korea, maybe it’s not Stalin & Hitler but it IS state-sponsored oppression when cops treat people this way and the other cops and DAs think its ok … unless of course it is made public and even then it’s still OK (according to The State) most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/228 "2017-09-30T05:22:12Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I’m saying that there was next to nothing the other officers could have done in the moment that the shit hit the fan. They had imperfect knowledge of what was happening and to get into another cops face at the moment of crisis can be very dangerous. Cops have to show a united front to the outside world and if they all start arguing in front of the public it can lead to very bad situations. We’ve already been through this and I’ve already posted a reply to you concerning this. I’ll simply copy and paste: > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by drewder > > It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. I encourage you to read the report by the Police Civilian Review Board, linked in my post above. As part of their formal deescalation program, the SLCPD specifically has implemented an informal intervention code (Code 909) which is to be used when an officer recognizes that another officer has become “frustrated” and to temporarily take over while the agitated officer calms down. This is to allow officers to help each other before the situation gets out of hand and an officer does something to jeopardize their career. While noting some of his actions, the reports faults a back up officer “W” for not intervening more forcefully with Payne, although they acknowledge it’s a difficult choice to make. By not intervening, W allowed Payne to really fuck up.\* \*Not the exact wording of the report, although it would have been refreshing. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/229 "2017-09-30T05:53:28Z")
I got the coding all screw up above. Let’s try that one again: > [@drewder](#): > > I’m saying that there was next to nothing the other officers could have done in the moment that the shit hit the fan. They had imperfect knowledge of what was happening and to get into another cops face at the moment of crisis can be very dangerous. Cops have to show a united front to the outside world and if they all start arguing in front of the public it can lead to very bad situations. > > However once she had been arrested it is perfectly acceptable to take the guy aside and try and convince him to do the right thing. > > Even before the arrest one of the other officers was warning that he didn’t think the arrest would stick. I suspect more of this sort of talk happened afterwards which is why she was released. We’ve already been through this and I’ve already posted a reply to you concerning this. I’ll simply copy and paste: > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > > [@drewder](#): > > > > It might not be in this specific situation however they are trained for dangerous situations and it becomes unthinkable to go against the leader in tense situations. > > I encourage you to read the report by the Police Civilian Review Board, linked in my post above. > > As part of their formal deescalation program, the SLCPD specifically has implemented an informal intervention code (Code 909) which is to be used when an officer recognizes that another officer has become “frustrated” and to temporarily take over while the agitated officer calms down. This is to allow officers to help each other before the situation gets out of hand and an officer does something to jeopardize their career. > > While noting some of his actions, the reports faults a back up officer “W” for not intervening more forcefully with Payne, although they acknowledge it’s a difficult choice to make. By not intervening, W allowed Payne to really fuck up.\* > > \*Not the exact wording of the report, although it would have been refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/230 "2017-09-30T14:25:10Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Let him suffer the logical consequences of his behavior, pay whatever debt is deemed proper, and pursue a career in retail sales or something. Bad call. I wouldn’t hire him for any position that has him dealing with members of the public in any way whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/231 "2017-10-11T02:53:58Z")
And the firing has occurred: Payne fired, his superior officer demoted from Lieutenant to Officer. [Utah police officer fired for treatment of nurse who refused blood draw](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/utah-police-nurse-1.4348819) ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/232 "2017-10-11T14:59:33Z")
I’m a little surprised that he didn’t get warned that he was going to be fired in time for him to resign/retire instead. The [story I read](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/detective-jeff-payne-fired-nurse-alex-wubbels-video/) says that Payne was expecting to be disciplined, not fired. > [@](#): > > Skordas (Payne’s attorney) said Payne would still be employed if the body camera footage hadn’t generated so much attention and blown the events out of proportion. Translated: Payne would have gotten away with if if it had just been his word against hers. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/233 "2017-10-11T18:00:24Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Something similar happened in airline training, where people had to be taught to express concerns to the pilot. Yes, [crew resource management.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management#Adoption_in_related_fields) Handy when life-or-death decisions need to be made within a hierarchical command structure, and the person in charge doesn’t have/remember all of the relevant information. Started in the cockpit, spread to other areas of aviation, and has made headway into firefighting and healthcare. Not sure it’s found application in law enforcement yet, but maybe it ought to… ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/234 "2017-10-28T02:49:43Z")
Unsurprisingly, [both have appealed their punishment.](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/25/appeal-slc-police-lieutenant-demoted-after-nurses-arrest-claims-excessive-discipline/) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/235 "2017-11-01T01:20:13Z")
The nurse has settled with “[all parties](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/31/utah-nurse-arrested-for-blocking-cop-from-drawing-blood-from-patient-receives-500000-settlement/),” receives $500,000. The article doesn’t give any details, but says that it will be updated. I wish that payments such as that would put more pressure on cities to police their police better. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/236 "2017-11-01T01:33:54Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The nurse has settled with “[all parties](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/31/utah-nurse-arrested-for-blocking-cop-from-drawing-blood-from-patient-receives-500000-settlement/),” receives $500,000. The article doesn’t give any details, but says that it will be updated. > > I wish that payments such as that would put more pressure on cities to police their police better. I saw an article stating she’d be using the money to help fund legal help for others trying to get footage from police. Sounds like you may get your wish. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/237 "2017-11-01T14:30:29Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I saw an article stating she’d be using the money to help fund legal help for others trying to get footage from police. > [@Salt Lake Tribune](#): > > Wubbels will use a portion of the money to help people get body camera footage, at no cost, of incidents involving themselves, she said at the news conference. In addition, Porter’s law firm, Christensen & Jensen, will provide for free any legal services necessary to obtain the video. > \ > Wubbels said she also will make a donation to the Utah Nurses Association and will help spearhead the #EndNurseAbuse campaign by the American Nurses Association. [full article](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/31/utah-nurse-arrested-for-blocking-cop-from-drawing-blood-from-patient-receives-500000-settlement/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/238 "2017-11-09T15:19:01Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Coincidentally enough, there was [a rerun of _ER_](http://er.wikia.com/wiki/Obstruction_of_Justice) on yesterday that features something similar to this. A policeman is demanding a blood test from a patient, Doctor Carter tells him to come back with a warrant. He comes back with a warrant, then demands to also get the stomach contents from a bedpan where the guy had thrown up. Carter asks if that is in the warrant–it isn’t, Carter dumps it down a sink. Cop arrests Carter, handcuffs him, takes him to jail. Ah, TV. There’s a pretty broad gulf between refusing to turn over evidence without a warrant and _destroying_ it when you know law enforcement is seeking it. > [@drewder](#): > > I’m saying that there was next to nothing the other officers could have done in the moment that the shit hit the fan. They had imperfect knowledge of what was happening and to get into another cops face at the moment of crisis can be very dangerous. Cops have to show a united front to the outside world and if they all start arguing in front of the public it can lead to very bad situations. > > However once she had been arrested it is perfectly acceptable to take the guy aside and try and convince him to do the right thing. No, the time to act to prevent a violation of a person’s civil rights is _before_ they are violated. The nurse was at work. She wasn’t going anywhere; in fact, she had already _refused_ to get out of the way of the officer. There was no reason that her arrest had to be effectuated immediately (even assuming it was justified _at all_). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/239 "2017-11-09T16:11:46Z")
One question: will Payne be eligible for any portion of his pension or other benefits? What would determine pension and benefits status in a situation like this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=11)