# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/41 "2017-09-02T12:08:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s a limited amount of time to do that. > > The body absorbs alcohol pretty quickly. > > If the truck driver was sober then they needed the sample quickly. > > Blood drawn many hours later couldn’t conclusively prove he was sober. > > The hospital shouldn’t be second guessing a police officer’s request. Let the courts decide later if this is admissible evidence. I’m sorry, this is the presumption of innocence room. The presumption of guilt area is down the hall, on the right. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/42 "2017-09-02T13:24:18Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Not trying to justify anyone’s behavior, but I do have a question: > Isn’t the truck driver (which, if I’m reading the situation correctly, is a victim of the fleeing perp, and not in any way involved, at lest in this instance, in any kind of negligent or criminal behavior or conduct) as a commercially/DOT licensed driver, required to have a blood test w/in 12-24 (or some other specified time period) hours of an incident, regardless of whomever’s at fault? Yes. But it’s the employer’s responsibility to obtain that, not the police. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/43 "2017-09-02T16:28:07Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I don’t know if you’ve seen the video of the accident, but he drove the wrong way down a road and hit a semi head-on. Of course I’ve read the comments on various articles. (Never read the comments, if you want to control your blood pressure.) It’s amazing how many people believe the truck driver was the suspect and not the victim. None of the articles I’ve read have indicated this. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Actually that blood test could have saved the truck driver from civil suits later. > > Remember the Walmart driver that hit Tracy Morgan? He had been driving too many hours. That resulted in a multi million dollar settlement. The Wal-Mart driver hit Morgan’s car. The truck driver in the case under discussion was hit by someone’s car. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/44 "2017-09-02T16:28:34Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s a limited amount of time to do that. > > The body absorbs alcohol pretty quickly. > > If the truck driver was sober then they needed the sample quickly. > > Blood drawn many hours later couldn’t conclusively prove he was sober. > > The hospital shouldn’t be second guessing a police officer’s request. Let the courts decide later if this is admissible evidence. If a police officer shows up at your home and demands to search, but had no warrant, you throw open your doors right? Your rights don’t matter, let the courts sort out any evidence found later? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/45 "2017-09-02T16:30:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s a limited amount of time to do that. > > The body absorbs alcohol pretty quickly. > > If the truck driver was sober then they needed the sample quickly. > > Blood drawn many hours later couldn’t conclusively prove he was sober. > > The hospital shouldn’t be second guessing a police officer’s request. Let the courts decide later if this is admissible evidence. And when the nurse gets fired for breaking the law and possibly losing her license, what then? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/46 "2017-09-02T17:00:28Z")
**aceplace57** , are there any other ethical rules that you think are unnecessary and should be violated willy-nilly, or just the medical ones? As for what to charge the officer with, in addition to false arrest, there’s also attempted assault. Poking sharp things into someone without their permission is certainly assault, and that’s what the officer was trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![GythaOgg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GythaOgg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GythaOgg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/47 "2017-09-02T17:25:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And when the nurse gets fired for breaking the law and possibly losing her license, what then? :dubious: Not just ‘possibly’. The state I live in publishes, quarterly, a list of who has had their nursing license revoked or disciplined or suspended, and this is exactly the kind of thing that would lead to that. Failing to follow established hospital policies is HUGE on the list. State boards of nursing don’t care if ‘a police officer told me it was OK’. You’re expected to be a professional nurse, to know the relevant policies, to consult with your supervisor, and to protect your patient according to the law. The state board of nursing would not care a bit about it all being hypothetically hammered out later. As noted upthread, nurses and the police usually have a good working relationship. Trust me, this incident is being widely discussed in nursing circles, and the trust that existed has been significantly eroded - and that’s very upsetting. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/48 "2017-09-02T17:41:22Z")
In the detective’s defense, he did not flip out and arrest her. He asked his supervisor what to do and he told him to arrest the nurse. I don’t think he should face any punishment because he did what he should have. The idiot supervisor, on the other hand, should bear the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/49 "2017-09-02T17:49:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In the detective’s defense, he did not flip out and arrest her. He asked his supervisor what to do and he told him to arrest the nurse. I don’t think he should face any punishment because he did what he should have. The idiot supervisor, on the other hand, should bear the consequences. If you watch the video, I think “flip out” is an accurate description, even if he was “just following orders”. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/50 "2017-09-02T17:56:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you watch the video, I think “flip out” is an accurate description, even if he was “just following orders”. In my defense I did not actually watch the entire video :p. I withdraw the “did not flip out” part of my post. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/51 "2017-09-02T18:04:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In my defense I did not actually watch the entire video :p. I withdraw the “did not flip out” part of my post. I don’t blame you. It’s a pretty long video, and I would not have gotten to that part had I not skipped ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/52 "2017-09-02T18:05:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you watch the video, I think “flip out” is an accurate description, even if he was “just following orders”. Yup. Frogmarching her out of the ER like that was venting anger and frustration, it served no sensible purpose. A nurse in that situation presents no threat whatsoever. If he felt his position was justified, a well-trained police officer with a modicum of self-control would first explain calmly that if she did not comply, he _planned_ to arrest her. This would allow her to consult with the senior hospital staff that she evidently had standing by on the phone - who would, no doubt, have advised her to submit calmly to arrest, while other staff looked after her patient, and let the lawyers sort out the consequences. Unless an interaction like that was edited out of the video, which seems highly unlikely given the reactions of all concerned, then his actions were angry bullying at not getting his way. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/53 "2017-09-02T18:06:41Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If a police officer shows up at your home and demands to search, but had no warrant, you throw open your doors right? Your rights don’t matter, let the courts sort out any evidence found later? Well, sure, that’s what they keep saying in all the defend-a-cop threads we have going these days. Follow a cop’s orders, no matter how illegal, no matter how undignified or even dangerous it may be to follow them. Then sort it out in court later, where your story will be given just as much credibility as the story of the police officer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/54 "2017-09-02T18:22:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yup. Frogmarching her out of the ER like that was venting anger and frustration, it served no sensible purpose. > > A nurse in that situation presents no threat whatsoever. If he felt his position was justified, a well-trained police officer with a modicum of self-control would first explain calmly that if she did not comply, he _planned_ to arrest her. This would allow her to consult with the senior hospital staff that she evidently had standing by on the phone - who would, no doubt, have advised her to submit calmly to arrest, while other staff looked after her patient, and let the lawyers sort out the consequences. > > Unless an interaction like that was edited out of the video, which seems highly unlikely given the reactions of all concerned, then his actions were angry bullying at not getting his way. I just re-watched it, and it’s about 6:30 on the video where the cop says something like “We’re done here” then rushes over to her and grabs her, marching her out of the building then pins her against the wall while he cuffs her. That guy is toast, as a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/55 "2017-09-02T18:35:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In the detective’s defense, he did not flip out and arrest her. He asked his supervisor what to do and he told him to arrest the nurse. I don’t think he should face any punishment because he did what he should have. The idiot supervisor, on the other hand, should bear the consequences. I had wondered how long it would be before someone proposed the Nuremberg defense. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/56 "2017-09-02T18:36:27Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Imho the hospital should have complied with the officer’s request. They needlessly put this nurse in a terrible situation. > > It’s the courts job to decide if the evidence (blood) is obtained lawfully. The court can have the evidence thrown out. Maybe even throw the case out too. > > Also the suspect has civil remedies if blood is obtained unlawfully. > > There is no need to put the nurse in a situation where she had to refuse a direct order from police. > > The officer should be punished. He overreacted. Are you serious? The hospital had procedures in place which were signed off and agreed to by the police. The nurse had copies of those procedures which she showed to the officer and which he ignored. The cop’s claim of implied consent was against Utah state law and was unconstitutional, as well. The hospital didn’t put her in any situation, the police did. She was doing her duty as she saw it. Her supervisor at the hospital backed her up completely and was in verbal communication with the officer. If she followed the officer’s orders, she could have opened up the hospital to legal and civil charges. The detective’s fellow officers on the scene even admitted they didn’t have probable cause to obtain a warrant. Also, the driver the police wanted to obtain blood from was not a suspect. There you go again, half-cocked on a situation based on a faulty understanding of it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/57 "2017-09-02T18:52:47Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I had wondered how long it would be before someone proposed the Nuremberg defense. Congratulations. It’s not like he tossed her in the gas chamber. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/58 "2017-09-02T19:14:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s not like he tossed her in the gas chamber. You don’t know, maybe the officer had been eating a lot of beans at lunch 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/59 "2017-09-02T19:17:28Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I had wondered how long it would be before someone proposed the Nuremberg defense. Congratulations. To be fair, it was certainly worth noting that the arrest decision may have come from a supervisor, who (presumably) had _not_ just participated in a stressful highway pursuit. If the circumstances were communicated accurately to the supervising officer, that’s even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/60 "2017-09-02T19:19:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s not like he tossed her in the gas chamber. Surely the sensible thing would be to toss her in the gas chamber, and then let the courts sort out whether it was justified? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=4)