# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/61 "2017-09-02T19:19:40Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > You don’t know, maybe the officer had been eating a lot of beans at lunch 😃 I do know that some Corrections officers at prisons are awfully proud of their gaseous emissions. The behavior can’t be justified. The RN had the right of it, did all the correct things, and rightfully refused to compromise her patient’s care. The officer blew it completely and certainly badly damaged future hospital-police relations at that institution. I love nurses; I’m privileged to work with many who have that strength of character and dedication to patient care, no matter who the patient is. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/62 "2017-09-02T19:22:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > To be fair, it was certainly worth noting that the arrest decision may have come from a supervisor, who (presumably) had _not_ just participated in a stressful highway pursuit. If the circumstances were communicated accurately to the supervising officer, that’s even worse. No one involved had been involved in the highway pursuit, The accident happened in Logan Utah, the hospital was in Salt lake city the two cities are separated by about 80 miles. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/63 "2017-09-02T19:32:39Z")
The nurse should not have been arrested in the first place, and even if she should have, there was no need to attack her, physically, like he did. This does not rise to the level of some of the shootings by cops we’ve seen, but it’s still unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/64 "2017-09-02T19:50:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The nurse should not have been arrested in the first place, and even if she should have, there was no need to attack her, physically, like he did. [Officer Who Arrested Utah Nurse In Viral Video Is Now Under Criminal Investigation](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-nurse-detective-criminal-investigation_us_59aa2f3be4b0354e440a8a3c?ncid=edlinkushpmg00000313) > [@](#): > > Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill ordered a criminal investigation Friday into the actions of Detective Jeff Payne who aggressively arrested nurse Alex Wubbels on July 26 for refusing to draw blood from a severely injured patient. The video currently in the article shows ‘Payne interrupting Wubbels as she continues to explain the policy to him…’ Wubbles has someone (the hospital administrator?) on speaker on her smartphone. Wubbels is seen to be calm and non-confrontational. **Administrator** [?] **:** Yeah, but sir, you’re making a huge mistake right now. Like… Like you’re making a huge mistake because you’re threatening a nurse… **Officer Payne:** OK. No, we’re done. We’re done. You’re under arrest. We’re going. We’re done. It is at this point where Officer Payne assaults the nurse, who had remained calm until he assaulted her. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/65 "2017-09-02T19:53:32Z")
One other point, here: The articles mentioned that the cop in question was part of the police phlebotomy unit, one of about 10 cops on the force who were trained and authorized to draw blood. Wouldn’t you think that that training would include when he’s allowed to draw blood? I mean, it’s one thing for an ordinary cop on the beat who never does blood draws to not keep abreast of the relevant laws and court decisions, but this guy wasn’t an ordinary cop on the beat: Knowing that was literally his job. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/66 "2017-09-02T19:55:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One other point, here: The articles mentioned that the cop in question was part of the police phlebotomy unit, one of about 10 cops on the force who were trained and authorized to draw blood. Wouldn’t you think that that training would include when he’s allowed to draw blood? I mean, it’s one thing for an ordinary cop on the beat who never does blood draws to not keep abreast of the relevant laws and court decisions, but this guy wasn’t an ordinary cop on the beat: Knowing that was literally his job. Had a shiver-inducing thought about this guy. Everyone knows that a blood draw, even from someone trained, can be uncomfortable to downright painful. How careful do you think this shithead was when drawing from a suspect? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/67 "2017-09-02T20:08:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One other point, here: The articles mentioned that the cop in question was part of the police phlebotomy unit, one of about 10 cops on the force who were trained and authorized to draw blood. Wouldn’t you think that that training would include when he’s allowed to draw blood? I mean, it’s one thing for an ordinary cop on the beat who never does blood draws to not keep abreast of the relevant laws and court decisions, but this guy wasn’t an ordinary cop on the beat: Knowing that was literally his job. Often people don’t know things that are literally their job. He doesn’t get excused for being an asshole, but I can see that he was in tough spot. He thinks, and his supervisor confirms, that he can and needs to draw blood. If a nurse is stopping him from that, what are his options here? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/68 "2017-09-02T20:14:21Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Often people don’t know things that are literally their job. He doesn’t get excused for being an asshole, but I can see that he was in tough spot. He thinks, and his supervisor confirms, that he can and needs to draw blood. If a nurse is stopping him from that, what are his options here? Obviously, his only option is to assault and arrest the nurse. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/69 "2017-09-02T20:15:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Had a shiver-inducing thought about this guy. > > Everyone knows that a blood draw, even from someone trained, can be uncomfortable to downright painful. > > How careful do you think this shithead was when drawing from a suspect? The driver in the situation was not a suspect. And considering he was unconscious, I don’t think the officer would have been very careful at all. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/70 "2017-09-02T20:21:45Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The driver in the situation was not a suspect. And considering he was unconscious, I don’t think the officer would have been very careful at all. I think he was referring to more in general. If officers are trained as phlebotomists, that means that they are drawing from suspects on a somewhat regular basis. And I would agree, given the way offices care about suspect rights, and given the way this particular officer was treating a nurse that upset him, I can certainly see him following trump’s advice of not being too nice. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/71 "2017-09-02T20:22:13Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The driver in the situation was not a suspect. And considering he was unconscious, I don’t think the officer would have been very careful at all. 'Cause if there’s one thing anyone with medical experience knows - around unresponsive burn victims there’s no need to be careful at all! ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/72 "2017-09-02T20:27:32Z")
Did you see the police press conference? It’s enough to make you vomit, seriously. It’s nothing but half truths, evasion, and weaselling. They had a femake cop/community liaison person, who then fielded all the questions that required answering like, “no, he was absolutely in the wrong!”, because the cops aren’t saying that. They claim he’s been removed but if you listen closely, removed ‘from the blood draw program’. They just want everybody to trust in the process, y’know? Oh, and they’ve apologized. There were four other cops on the scene. Who did nothing and face no consequences. Who is gonna trust in the process now? I hope the nurse hires an attorney before the sun sets and sues them large. LARGE! And when she’s done I hope the hospital does the same thing, for endangering lives by arresting/removing the head nurse from the emergency burn ward mid shift. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/73 "2017-09-02T20:34:17Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Did you see the police press conference? It’s enough to make you vomit, seriously. It’s nothing but half truths, evasion, and weaselling. They had a femake cop/community liaison person, who then fielded all the questions that required answering like, “no, he was absolutely in the wrong!”, because the cops aren’t saying that. > > They claim he’s been removed but if you listen closely, removed ‘from the blood draw program’. They just want everybody to trust in the process, y’know? Oh, and they’ve apologized. There were four other cops on the scene. Who did nothing and face no consequences. Who is gonna trust in the process now? > > I hope the nurse hires an attorney before the sun sets and sues them large. LARGE! And when she’s done I hope the hospital does the same thing, for endangering lives by arresting/removing the head nurse from the emergency burn ward mid shift. He wasn’t just removed from the blood draw program. He has been placed on paid administrative leave and is also under criminal investigation. [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/latest-arrested-salt-lake-nurse-accepts-chiefs-apology-49572069](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/latest-arrested-salt-lake-nurse-accepts-chiefs-apology-49572069) ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/74 "2017-09-02T20:37:05Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > 'Cause if there’s one thing anyone with medical experience knows - around unresponsive burn victims there’s no need to be careful at all! Only if you’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/75 "2017-09-02T21:08:24Z")
I think it is interesting to note that the nurse in question was an Olympic athlete. She was a skier in 1998 and 2002. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/76 "2017-09-02T21:10:35Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The driver in the situation was not a suspect. And considering he was unconscious, I don’t think the officer would have been very careful at all. Again, the patient was a reserve police officer. Not only was that _why_ they were so eager to protect him, but he would have been treated with kid gloves during the illegal procedure. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/77 "2017-09-02T21:14:33Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > He wasn’t just removed from the blood draw program. He has been placed on paid administrative leave and is also under criminal investigation. > > [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/latest-arrested-salt-lake-nurse-accepts-chiefs-apology-49572069](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/latest-arrested-salt-lake-nurse-accepts-chiefs-apology-49572069) Yes, after the press conference. For the last 5 weeks he has been on active duty. The nurse seems to have a very good attorney, or at least one that understands the PR aspects of this quite well. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/78 "2017-09-02T21:16:08Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Again, the patient was a reserve police officer. Not only was that _why_ they were so eager to protect him, but he would have been treated with kid gloves during the illegal procedure. Can you explain to me how you think a non-consentual blood draw protects the victim’s interests? ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/79 "2017-09-02T21:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, the patient was a reserve police officer. Not only was that why they were so eager to protect him, but he would have been treated with kid gloves during the illegal procedure. Do we know if they even knew he was reserve police officer at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/80 "2017-09-02T21:36:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Can you explain to me how you think a non-consentual blood draw protects the victim’s interests? No. Can you show me where I made that claim? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=5)