# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/141 "2017-09-04T19:47:05Z")
I just want to say I’d have second thoughts if anyone named Payne asked to draw my blood. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/142 "2017-09-04T21:48:02Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > _groan_ > > [2nd Utah police officer put on administrative duty over nurse arrest](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/02/utah-cop-put-on-leave-after-bodycam-video-shows-him-cuffing-nurse-for-refusing-to-draw-blood-on-unconscious-patient.html) > > So now defective Payne’s lieutenant is sharing some of the scrutiny (maybe). I think he’s sharing the pain. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/143 "2017-09-04T21:51:22Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > So now **defective** Payne’s lieutenant… I just caught that. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/144 "2017-09-04T21:58:46Z")
WHOOPS!!! > **[Patient In Viral Nurse Arrest Video Was A Cop](https://www.newsweek.com/patient-viral-video-nurse-being-arrested-refusing-draw-blood-turns-out-be-659051)** > > Footage of the nurse being arrest went viral. "“The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray’s rights as a patient and victim. Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act,” the department’s post said. The department also explained how Gray came to be in the hospital, stating: “On July 26th of this year, one of our reserve officers, William Gray was the victim in a horrific accident in northern Utah while working his full-time job as a truck driver.” “The suspect in this incident was fleeing from Utah State Highway Patrol, when he crossed into oncoming traffic and collided head on with Gray’s truck, severely injuring Gray, and killing himself. Officer Gray was flown to the University of Utah’s burn unit where he remains under their watchful, professional, and competent care,” the post added." TLDR version: The guy they were trying to get blood from was a cop and a victim and was not ever a suspect in a crime. So yeah, criminal charges against Mr. Power Mad just became a lot more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/145 "2017-09-04T23:31:44Z")
I think this kind of incident shows that it’s not just a ‘few bad apples’ - there was a person illegally handcuffing and arresting a woman for following the law, and none of the other cops on the scene did anything to stop him because he also wore blue. If this kind of incident was really a case of a ‘few bad apples’ instead of a major institutional disregard for the rule of law, his fellow officers should have stopped him and arrested him at the scene, and the department shouldn’t have backed him, and definitely shouldn’t have waited weeks to change the policy to comply with the law. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/146 "2017-09-05T00:11:03Z")
Thanks to those who corrected me. Having read the updated articles, the situation was very different than I had initially supposed. The one very overweight man in uniform was on the phone and seemed to be trying to get help. I couldn’t tell if he was a cop or hospital security. As I understand it, in police organizations the Detectives outrank the police officers. He may well have been the ranking officer on site and therefore the others would have been risking their livelihoods if they’d tried to countermand him. The most ironic part, is that if the nurse had complied with his order, then he would have had good reason to arrest her. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/147 "2017-09-05T02:24:16Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I think it is interesting to note that the nurse in question was an Olympic athlete. She was a skier in 1998 and 2002. This is totally relevant. She recognized that if she let the officer perform this blood-draw, it’d make it far easier for police to violate patient rights in even more severe ways. She knows her way around a slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/148 "2017-09-05T02:26:06Z")
[Utah hospital bars police from contact with nurses after ‘appalling’ arrest](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/04/utah-hospital-bars-cops-from-contact-with-nurses-after-appalling-arrest) > [@](#): > > She said police will no longer be permitted in patient-care areas, such as the burn unit where Wubbels was the charge nurse on the day of the incident. > > In addition, officers will have to deal with “house supervisors” instead of nurses when they have a request. > > This will guarantee that nurses devote themselves entirely to patient care without interruptions, she said, while other officials deal with police requests. Most of the house supervisors I have known eat nails and shit tacks so I fully approve of this policy shift. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/149 "2017-09-05T03:47:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Possible crimes he committed: false arrest, kidnapping, assault, civil rights violation under color of law. But despite that I’ll put $100 bucks on the table right now betting that the cop will not be charged with a crime and will not lose his job. How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/150 "2017-09-05T05:05:47Z")
The CEO of the hospital [announced](http://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/09/04/live-university-hospital-officials-discuss-arrest-of-nurse-who-refused-to-draw-blood/) that university attorneys are looking at possible actions: > [@](#): > > Crabtree took time Monday to praise Wubbels and to describe changes that have been implemented. Crabtree also said the University of Utah’s attorneys are considering whether to take action against Salt Lake City police and Jeff Payne, the detective who arrested Wubbels. Crabtree didn’t elaborate. At the same press conference: > [@](#): > > University of Utah Police Chief Dale Brophy took an apologetic tone when he said he didn’t understand the gravity of the incident until he saw the body camera video. > > “My reaction changed after viewing the video,” he said. “She shouldn’t have been hauled off in handcuffs.” > > Apparently following protocol, two university police or security officers stood by during the arrest. Brophy said all of his officers will get training in de-escalation techniques. It remains unclear, however, whether university police will engage Salt Lake City officers differently in the future. The nurse made this public because she felt the university police weren’t taking it seriously enough. Neither the Salt Lake police chief nor the University of Utah police chielf looked at the body cam footage until it became national news. You have to wonder how much there will be changes until complaints are taken more seriously before videos go viral. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/151 "2017-09-05T06:02:55Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? The false arrest and excessive force are both civil rights violations. [Cite](https://www.justice.gov/crt/addressing-police-misconduct-laws-enforced-department-justice) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/152 "2017-09-05T06:46:38Z")
n.m. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/153 "2017-09-05T09:10:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? You’re talking about the Detective, right? There’s a video link in the OP. Go ahead, click that. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/154 "2017-09-05T10:45:30Z")
The cop is [suspended from his other job](http://fox13now.com/2017/09/04/golds-cross-ambulance-places-detective-on-administrative-leave/), too. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/155 "2017-09-05T10:47:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Often people don’t know things that are literally their job. He doesn’t get excused for being an asshole, but I can see that he was in tough spot. He thinks, and his supervisor confirms, that he can and needs to draw blood. If a nurse is stopping him from that, what are his options here? I think if we give someone a badge and a gun and the unilateral ability to apply legal force that provides, we should damn well expect they know what their job is. If we’re going to give these people [the presumption of truth](https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/14/the-presumption-of-truth/) and the ability to [kill people without due cause, good reason, or consequence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMKcWz5nNoM), we should damn well be able to expect that they know how to do their damn jobs without screwups like this. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/156 "2017-09-05T11:03:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I think this kind of incident shows that it’s not just a ‘few bad apples’ - there was a person illegally handcuffing and arresting a woman for following the law, and none of the other cops on the scene did anything to stop him because he also wore blue. If this kind of incident was really a case of a ‘few bad apples’ instead of a major institutional disregard for the rule of law, his fellow officers should have stopped him and arrested him at the scene, and the department shouldn’t have backed him, and definitely shouldn’t have waited weeks to change the policy to comply with the law. One bad apple spoils the bunch, that was the proverb. ‘A few bad apples’ and the idea that they don’t represent anything is some recent thing that contradicts the old wisdom and doesn’t make any sense. In the opening minutes of this video, pre-arrest, it’s incredibly tense and the arresting officer is already the problem shithead on the scene. Security and at least one other cop seem to know this, and that at least gives me hope. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/157 "2017-09-05T13:16:00Z")
Here is a [legal analysis](http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/) by a professor of law at the University of Utah. > [@](#): > > The actions of the detective appear utterly indefensible and, legally, the police were in the wrong. But as with many issues involving law enforcement these days, the circumstances are more complicated than they might initially appear. > > (snip) > > Nurse Alex Wubbels, following directions from her hospital supervisors, refused to allow the draw, unless the detective had a search warrant, probable cause and exigent circumstances or consent of the patient. The detective, who as following instructions from his watch commander, said he had “implied consent” to take the blood draw. Who was right? > > It turns out that Nurse Wubbels and her supervisors were correct, but not for the reasons that she gave. It is true that the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution forbids “unreasonable searches and seizures” and a blood draw is clearly a “search.” > > Of course, situations exist where police reasonably need to take blood. Nurse Wubbels accurately identified the three circumstances in which police can reasonably perform blood draws. The detective lacked a search warrant and lacked probable cause and exigent circumstances, so neither of those two grounds justify the blood draw. > > But what about consent? A blood draw taken with consent is clearly reasonable, but here the patient was unconscious. According to the police reports connected with the incident, the detective and his supervisor thought they had consent relying on Utah’s “implied consent” law found at Utah Code § 41-6a-520. And further along > [@](#): > > Just last year, the U.S. Supreme Court favorably discussed such implied consent laws. In Birchfield v. North Dakota, the court struck down a North Dakota implied consent law – but only on the narrow ground that North Dakota had provided a criminal penalty for those who refused to consent to a blood draw. The court noted that its previous decisions had “referred approvingly to the general concept of implied-consent laws that impose civil penalties and evidentiary consequences on motorists who refuse to comply” and “nothing we say here should be read to cast doubt on them.” Utah’s implied consent law only imposes civil penalties (such as suspension of driver’s license) and thus is constitutional. However, if the police had actually been bothered enough to read the damn law, the very one they were relying on to arrest the nurse, they could see that > [@Utah code 41-6a-520](#): > > (1) > (a) A person operating a motor vehicle in this state is considered to have given the person’s consent to a chemical test or tests of the person’s breath, blood, urine, or oral fluids for the purpose of determining whether the person was operating or in actual physical control of a motor vehicle while: > (i) having a blood or breath alcohol content statutorily prohibited under Section 41-6a-502, 41-6a-530, or 53-3-231; > (ii) under the influence of alcohol, any drug, or combination of alcohol and any drug under Section 41-6a-502; or > (iii) having any measurable controlled substance or metabolite of a controlled substance in the person’s body in violation of Section 41-6a-517. > (b) A test or tests authorized under this Subsection (1) must be administered at the direction of a peace officer **having grounds to believe that person to have been operating or in actual physical control of a motor vehicle while in violation of any provision under Subsections (1)(a)(i) through (iii)**. my bolding The officer had no grounds to believe the driver was in violation of the provision. None. Zero. Zip. All the officer was interested in was well, as the article says > [@](#): > > sadly the police seem to have had little interest in discussing the issues with Nurse Wubbels and more interest in, it appears, in throwing their weight around. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/158 "2017-09-05T13:40:36Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > One bad apple spoils the bunch, that was the proverb. ‘A few bad apples’ and the idea that they don’t represent anything is some recent thing that contradicts the old wisdom and doesn’t make any sense. Actually, the “few bad apples” line of argument _confirms_ the ancient wisdom; it just suggests that we’re early in the bunch-spoiling process. The people advancing the “a few bad apples” argument are apparently extrapolating on findings from [the work of Jackson, Osmond, _et al_…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQDOQhobRLY) ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/159 "2017-09-05T13:41:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? Explain why you think he _didn’t_. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/160 "2017-09-05T13:50:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Explain why you think he _didn’t_. Good luck with that, **ITD**. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, that’s now how it works. The person making the claim has to provide the cite(s). :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=9)