# Can someone justify this behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288 "2017-09-02T01:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/161 "2017-09-05T14:34:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think if we give someone a badge and a gun and the unilateral ability to apply legal force that provides, we should damn well expect they know what their job is. If we’re going to give these people [the presumption of truth](https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/14/the-presumption-of-truth/) and the ability to [kill people without due cause, good reason, or consequence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMKcWz5nNoM), we should damn well be able to expect that they know how to do their damn jobs without screwups like this. Alas, giving someone a badge and gun doesn’t change their human fallibility. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/162 "2017-09-05T16:57:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is totally relevant. She recognized that if she let the officer perform this blood-draw, it’d make it far easier for police to violate patient rights in even more severe ways. She knows her way around a slippery slope. Geez. A perfect Horatio Caine moment ruined, all because you ( •_•) ( •_•)\>⌐■-■ forgot… (⌐■\_■) your sunglasses. YYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!! ETA: This is also relevant. Because you wear sunglasses on the slopes. And probably yell “YYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!” a lot. ---
**Author:** ![StraightTalk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straighttalk/32/9982_2.png) [@StraightTalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StraightTalk)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/163 "2017-09-05T18:47:57Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > They changed their policy to conform with _the actual fucking law_? Is that correct? The implication is that their original policy was contrary to the law. ---
**Author:** ![StraightTalk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straighttalk/32/9982_2.png) [@StraightTalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StraightTalk)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/164 "2017-09-05T18:48:57Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Imho the hospital should have complied with the officer’s request. They needlessly put this nurse in a terrible situation. > > It’s the courts job to decide if the evidence (blood) is obtained lawfully. The court can have the evidence thrown out. Maybe even throw the case out too. > > Also the suspect has civil remedies if blood is obtained unlawfully. > > There is no need to put the nurse in a situation where she had to refuse a direct order from police. > > The officer should be punished. He overreacted. Civil remedies will not get your your arm back if the officer ordered her to cut off your arm and she did it “just because he said so”. ---
**Author:** ![StraightTalk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straighttalk/32/9982_2.png) [@StraightTalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StraightTalk)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/165 "2017-09-05T18:50:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m always happy to consider alternative explanations for seemingly obvious situations (witness the “jogger push” thread), but in this case, no. > The law was 100% on the side of the nurse and the officer was 100% wrong. The rules were clear. > I can understand a degree of frustration from the officer but I cannot for the life of me see how his preferred resolution to this is “arrest her”. What exactly does that accomplish? It gets him no nearer to a blood sample. > Someone who lets their frustration boil over in a situation which is neither violent nor dangerous and is ignorant of basic protocol, IMHO, doesn’t belong in uniform. Let’s hope he gets fired. > > And full marks to the nurse for her mature and measured response to this, both at the time and in the aftermath. I’d rather have her as police officer. I suspect he thought he would go back into the hospital rubbing his hands together saying “Ok, who’s next?” Meaning, I bet he was hoping his arresting her (or at least the show of dragging her out and handcuffing her) would make the next person in line he asked for blood more compliant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/166 "2017-09-05T20:07:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Which specific law did the officer break? In Utah, he appears to have violated Utah Criminal Code Section 76-5-304, which provides in pertinent part: > [@](#): > > An actor commits unlawful detention if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim, detains or restrains the victim under circumstances not constituting a violation of: > (a) kidnapping, Section 76-5-301; > (b) child kidnapping, Section 76-5-301.1; or > (c) aggravated kidnapping, Section 76-5-302. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/167 "2017-09-05T21:08:38Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Would it have been possible for the cop to get an insta-warrant? > > (ETA: There’s really two questions there: Would it have been legally possible, and would it have been logistically possible?) Happens ALL the time. If the cop had probable cause, he could have gotten a warrant stat. He didn’t so instead decided to try to bully a nurse into giving him what he wanted, regardless of the patient’s rights. Anyone suggesting that the nurse should have just complied and let the courts sort it out knows nothing about HIPAA laws. And anyone defending this officer needs to reread the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. He behavior is un-fucking-acceptable. I wonder what goes on when the cameras aren’t rolling… ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/168 "2017-09-05T21:35:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Doesn’t matter. Ignorance of the law is not a defense in court. Especially from an Officer of the Law. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/169 "2017-09-05T22:25:09Z")
Even if they thought they had the ability to arrest her, it didn’t in any way allow them to draw blood. The supervisor was there also forbidding it. The nurse was only following the hospital policy, as worked out with the police. Arresting her was entirely just a power move because the cop did not want to be seen as “losing” the confrontation. My understanding, which was from before we knew the crash victim was a police officer, was that it’s unlikely that criminal charges would win, due to just how cops are these days. But that a civil suit might, and could be filed against the cop and his department, so that neither would be able to use the other as an excuse and prevent any compensation. Granted, this was from a copyright attorney who only sometimes takes on cases like this. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/170 "2017-09-05T22:53:12Z")
One must wonder if the decrease in readiness of the burn unit due to the loss of their head nurse might be something the hospital can sue over. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/171 "2017-09-05T23:33:49Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > One must wonder if the decrease in readiness of the burn unit due to the loss of their head nurse might be something the hospital can sue over. There are likely several things they can sue over. If you watch the whole tape, the bully cop can be heard saying (he also drives for an ambulance company) that from now on he’s only going to bring indigent patients to that hospital and filter the “good” patients to other hospitals…probably those that comply with his illegal demands. The fact that his supervisor was encouraging him to arrest the nurse for refusing to break the law and the fact that their own policies violate the law, shows a systemic level of misconduct in the SLC PD. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/172 "2017-09-05T23:44:03Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The cop is [suspended from his other job](http://fox13now.com/2017/09/04/golds-cross-ambulance-places-detective-on-administrative-leave/), too. The suspension didn’t last very long. [Fired](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/05/slc-detective-involved-in-nurses-arrest-is-fired-from-his-part-time-paramedic-job/). You know that you’re an internet warrior when you want his house burned down and his fields salted. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/173 "2017-09-05T23:54:56Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > There are likely several things they can sue over. If you watch the whole tape, the bully cop can be heard saying (he also drives for an ambulance company) that from now on he’s only going to bring indigent patients to that hospital and filter the “good” patients to other hospitals…probably those that comply with his illegal demands. > > The fact that his supervisor was encouraging him to arrest the nurse for refusing to break the law and the fact that their own policies violate the law, shows a systemic level of misconduct in the SLC PD. The hospital is not going to sue the police. For one thing, they depend on each other. For another, what do they stand to gain? Here is what _should_ happen; The arresting officer loses his job AND gets a bad referral. He had three different jobs that should have given him a basic understanding of the law. EMT, phlebotomy, and police officer. If he didn’t know the law despite years of doing two of those jobs, he is unfit. He also became upset in a non-stressful situation. He cannot make good decisions. Fired. The partner. Should have been able to calm and de-escalate the arresting officer. Did nothing. Discipline, two weeks without pay The supervising officer. Discipline, two weeks without pay. The University police chief. Depends on what he did right after this happened… If he was aware of the circumstances and did nothing, fired. The SLC police chief. Fired. If he was unaware of what happened, then he is out of touch with his department, fired. If he was aware of what happened, and did nothing until the tape came out, fired with bad reference. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/174 "2017-09-06T01:14:59Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > The hospital is not going to sue the police. For one thing, they depend on each other. For another, what do they stand to gain? > > Here is what _should_ happen; > The arresting officer loses his job AND gets a bad referral. He had three different jobs that should have given him a basic understanding of the law. EMT, phlebotomy, and police officer. If he didn’t know the law despite years of doing two of those jobs, he is unfit. He also became upset in a non-stressful situation. He cannot make good decisions. Fired. > The partner. Should have been able to calm and de-escalate the arresting officer. Did nothing. Discipline, two weeks without pay > The supervising officer. Discipline, two weeks without pay. > The University police chief. Depends on what he did right after this happened… > If he was aware of the circumstances and did nothing, fired. > The SLC police chief. Fired. If he was unaware of what happened, then he is out of touch with his department, fired. If he was aware of what happened, and did nothing until the tape came out, fired with bad reference. I don’t think the hospital will sue either, just stating that they have grounds. And their relationship with the PD has suffered a serious blow. THe hospital has [changed their policy](http://https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/04/utah-hospital-bars-cops-from-contact-with-nurses-after-appalling-arrest/?utm_term=.859622952c7a) and will no longer allow police officers in patient care areas and they can no longer interact with nursing staff. As for the PD, they did nothing right after it happened, which is what prompted the nurse & her lawyer to release the video to the public. I think the department needs a complete overhaul. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/175 "2017-09-06T03:18:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How did the officer violate the nurse’s civil rights? Unreasonable seizure? No probable cause and no warrant. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/176 "2017-09-06T21:21:16Z")
In a bit of a win for decency, Detective Payne was fired from Gold Cross ambulance gig: [Detective in nurse arrest video fired from job at Gold Cross | KSL.com](https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45689348&nid=148) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/177 "2017-09-06T23:15:46Z")
Payne’s actions certainly reflected badly on Gold Cross. I wouldn’t mind if he had kept that job though, since I don’t think there is potential there for violating patients’ rights. But he should definitely be fired from the police force. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/178 "2017-09-06T23:45:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Payne’s actions certainly reflected badly on Gold Cross. I wouldn’t mind if he had kept that job though, since I don’t think there is potential there for violating patients’ rights. But he should definitely be fired from the police force. If you listen to the full 22 minute tape, you will that very officer say that in order to retaliate against the hospital, he would only bring indigent patients there in the future and would funnel all the “good patients” to other hospitals. Gold Cross said that was a violation of their company policies and fired him. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/179 "2017-09-07T00:07:16Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > If you listen to the full 22 minute tape, you will that very officer say that in order to retaliate against the hospital, he would only bring indigent patients there in the future and would funnel all the “good patients” to other hospitals. Gold Cross said that was a violation of their company policies and fired him. Yes, I read that. I also read (yesterday or the day before) that Gold Cross said they checked their records, and they did not show that he actually did this. I _really_ don’t want to defend this guy. But I’d much rather see him fired from the police department. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288/180 "2017-09-07T00:16:56Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > …[He said] that in order to retaliate against the hospital, he would only bring indigent patients there in the future and would funnel all the “good patients” to other hospitals. Gold Cross said that was a violation of their company policies and fired him. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes, I read that. I also read (yesterday or the day before) that Gold Cross said they checked their records, and they did not show that he actually did this. Well, he hasn’t done it yet – doesn’t mean he wouldn’t follow through later. Regardless, just the threat to do something so asinine is more than sufficient cause to fire his ass. > [@](#): > > But I’d much rather see him fired from the police department. Agreed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-justify-this-behavior/795288.md?page=10)