Can someone justify this behavior?

Logan police didn’t push for blood draw, chief tells CNN after SLC mayor rebukes handling of officer’s leave
Mostly just a rehash except for

But reading it did lead me to another hypothetical. Given that “blood cannot be taken by police from a patient unless the patient gives consent, is under arrest, or is under warrant for arrest.” What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent? I don’t doubt that defective Payne would have attempted to coerce cooperation, but failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released. Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order.

It’s interesting to see the bodycam footage of Payne and Tracy calmly discussing how they’re going to extricate themselves from the clusterfuck they caused. They’re clearly hoping that if they release Wubbels and get the hell out of there, the whole mess will go away.

Here is Officer Payne’s full body cam video. What is more offensive to me-even more offensive than his ignorance of the laws he is supposed to enforce-is how he bullies and threatens this nurse before physically assaulting her. The nurse is clearly terrified as you can see her hands shaking as she holds the paper reading the policy agreed upon between SLCPD and the Hospital.

At 14:52 or so on the video, you hear another officer asking how things have panned out when this same situation has come up in the past. And Jeff Payne can be heard saying “I’ve run into similar things, but they end up consenting. It’s never gone this far.” So they are in the habit of bullying hospital personnel into breaking the law by threatening to take them to jail. Unfuckingbelievable.

This was posted above:

The nurse was right, but for the wrong reason. The reason the draw was unjustified was the lack of reasonable grounds to think the driver was driving under the influence. If a cop has that, they can draw blood even without a warrant.

The bigger question to me is that even if the police have that right, where do they get their authority to force a nurse to do the blood draw.

The cop was a licensed phlebotomist. I’ve been assuming he was actually going to do the blood draw himself, he just need the nurse to give him access to the patient.

Utah police and policy makers have both talked up their programs for deescalation and this is a training video of how to escalate a situation. The nurse is clearly scared and says she wants someone to be with her.

At one point, another hospital employee takes the nurse into an unused room – with an open door – apparently to help calm the situation. Payne follows right along with her. He’s putting a lot of pressure on her constantly.

She’s constantly asking why he’s being so threatening.

This is just simply wrong. It seem to me that he’s simply power hungry. Someone has threatened his authority and he’s going to make her pay. He sounds downright happy that she’s supposed to be arrested.

There simply is no reason for him to drag her out of the ER. He reports to the lieutenant that he had and there is absolutely no concern about the necessity of it.

When she prints out the paper, she clearly points out that the police department and the hospital have agreed to the policy, but he’s not listening. Nor does he go back to his watch commander for the clarification. He didn’t inform his boss about Logan PD not caring about the blood draw, either. He just keeps insisting that she’s going to jail.

Someone talks upstream about the officer’s adrenaline rush from witnessing the crash. He wasn’t of course, but he does get into an adrenaline rush during the arrest. You can hear his heavy breathing. You would think he just nabbed a murderer.

The lieutenant is a complete dick. He accuses her of not trying to understand or to discuss, when it’s Payne and the dick who are refusing to be reasonable.

Yup. And this is why the guy needs to have criminal charges brought against him.

A few misconceptions here.

“What if the patient had been conscious and refused consent?”
Happens all the time. The officer either has to arrest the patient (which is usually what happens) or get a warrant. The difference here is that the officer was trying to get a sample from someone who clearly hadn’t done anything wrong.

“…failing that, he couldn’t have very well dragged a patient in serious or worse condition out of the bed. In fact, I don’t think a LEO can take custody of any person under treatment until after they are released.”
Being in “custody” has nothing to do with being in the hospital. The officer can arrest someone who is being treated in the hospital and the patient is then in custody of the police. That doesn’t affect his stay in the hospital. The officer can’t take the patient out of the hospital until the patient is released by the hospital (discharged). If the police bring someone into the hospital for care, they aren’t taking him out of there until he has been medically cleared (discharged).

" Even if they “know” the patient is faking it. Handcuff them to the bed, yes, but not remove them from the facility without a court order."
The don’t remove them with a court order, they take them after the patient has been medically cleared. We are able to determine with reasonable certainty
if someone is faking most things.

This is from the nurse’s perspective. A LEO may have a different take.

No. The nurse was right because none of the three required conditions had been met.

  1. Consent
  2. Arrest
  3. Warrant

The nurse has absolutely nothing to do with “reasonable grounds” etc. She wasn’t there and that isn’t her job or area of expertise.

The second sentence “If a cop has…” is also wrong. He NEEDS one of those three things. Not “reasonable grounds”. He will usually first try for consent, failing that he will arrest the person.

While I appreciate the legal opinion, I think I’m going to go with the law professor at the University of Utah over some rando on the internet.

Ah, that’s much shakier for the nurse.

But that law professor’s article also says this :

It’s talking about the penalties imposed under an implied consent law for refusing to consent - which implies that the police cannot take the person’s blood without their actual consent - unless of course, he is under arrest or they have a warrant. If the police can draw the blood without the person’s consent, there isn’t any need for a penalty when he refuses to consent.

Not really. Unless there is some other law which somehow requires hospitals to allow give police access to patients who are not in their custody and for whom the police don’t have a warrant nor any reason to believe he has committed a crime - and there isn’t one. The Fourth amendment wouldn’t allow it. The nurse would have to give them access in the same circumstances that I would have to give them access if they knocked on my door wanting access to my son to draw his blood.

The point I believe you are missing is that IF the cop had reasonable grounds to believe that a person from whom blood is to be taken was driving under the influence, THAT would have been probable cause for a warrant. It is not up to a nurse to decide if his grounds are reasonable, that is the job of a judge and if a judge agreed with him, he would have granted him a warrant, so **steatopygia **is 100% correct.

The law professor clearly states the requirement for a police officer to do a blood draw. It does not include arrest or a warrant.

Falls under exigent circumstances exception to the 4th amendment.

The law professor’s article does not explicitly address what I am talking about which is whether the officer can forcibly draw blood from a person who is refusing. Here is the text of Utah’s implied consent law. You will notice that no part of it states that the officer can draw blood even if the person refuses to submit to the test and the following is the procedure to be followed when a person refuses to submit.

You will notice that it does not say the officer will draw the blood even if the person refuses to submit.

But the article does explicitly say

because the officers did not have reasonable cause to believe that the patient was
driving under the influence of alcohol or other substances in violation of the law.

Which requires an imminent danger to a person or serious damage to property, or pursing a fleeing suspect or reason to believe that evidence will be destroyed and possibly a couple of other situations - none of which applied in this case and all of which would have involved a crime being committed by the person whose blood was sought. (as his blood would not have been evidence of a crime committed by someone else).The police did not believe the patient committed a crime, so they could not have feared evidence would be destroyed (and if they had, they would have arrested him and the nurse would have allowed the blood draw) There was no danger to a person or property, and he didn’t run into the hospital while the police were in hot pursuit of him.
Remember, this guy was the victim of the person the police were chasing and the police had no reason to believe he had done anything wring. They claimed they wanted the blood to prove he wasn’t driving under the influence (which I don’t believe for a minute)- and that is not an acceptable reason to draw blood under either Utah’s implied consent law or the Fourth amendment.

You are incorrect. Again IF the officer had reasonable grounds to believe the driver was impaired, that would represent probable cause, and judge would grant him a warrant. He doesn’t just waltz into a hospital and declare that he has reasonable grounds for a blood draw & have that honored…he doesn’t have that authority. A judge gets to decide if his grounds are reasonable, and if the judge agrees, he issues a warrant.

There are a couple of interesting articles in the local paper.

The first is Payne’s attorney inspin mode:

Naturally, the attorney failed to address any of the sticky points and the paper failed to ask why this guy keep insisting on being an out-of-control brute despite Logan PD having already told him that it was no longer necessary.

Second, it appears that some people are making death threats against the watch commander.

This is unfortunate. Mob mentality can be quite ugly.

In the article:

This is one of the points which really annoys and angers me. To the police here, they are simply looking at this as something that they don’t care if it’s illegal because there is no punishment for them. If they can’t use it, they can’t use it. No harm, no foul. Despite a completely unnecessary – and possibly illegal-- violent arrest, it’s the victim’s fault here.

Has anyone started a pool for the outcome here? I’ll go with the usual outcome.

Payne resigns or retires to avoid being fired. Quietly takes a job with another department after the public loses interest in him.

Same for Lt. Tracy or maybe he takes a demotion.

No charges filed to the surprise of no one.

How much choice did they have, realistically? He’s a walking liability in any kind of medical job now. Even without the discussion they said they fired him for, there’s a video of him committing an act of violence against a medical professional in a medical facility, in order to gain access to a patient against whom he intended to commit another act of violence. If he ever so much as sneezed on the job, there would be ample evidence showing that they continued to employ someone they knew to be abusive to both medical workers and patients.

FBI probing Utah cop who arrested nurse for refusing to draw blood

I don’t really expect much in the way of updates until everyone’s investigations are complete. About the only significant news I’d expect before the official reports would be my previously suggested resignation/retirement announcements.

I hope you end up being wrong, but I’m not very confident that you will be.

Off all the recent incidents of police misconduct, this one may have the best opportunity to result in stronger actions. Absolutely no guarantees, but it may be possible.

Factors.

Victim is a blond female. In some parallel universe, black males lives are equally as important, but we ain’t there yet.

Victim is a nurse. Probably even more sympathetic than even an elderly lady driving home from Sunday School.

No one is going to be testing her for illegal drugs. It’s a damn good bet that she doesn’t use them, but still there isn’t any possible doubts to bring up.

It’s not a traffic stop and there simply isn’t even a manufactured reason for Payne to react with such violence.

Payne made enough incriminating comments on tape which could tip the scale if it’s close.

Still all told, I have no idea how it will play out.

I also fear that there won’t be any serious consequences. He’s lost his ambulance job and that may be the harshest punishment he will face. Given his age at close to 60ish, it may be harder for him to get another police job.

Or, we could be surprised and see some actual justice, but I’m not holding my breath.