# Can Someone prove to me that God doesn't exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2001, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042 "2001-10-02T20:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![telechus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@telechus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telechus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/221 "2001-10-04T18:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > \*\* > If you believe: > [ul] > [li]God does not exist[/li][/ul] > > Then: > > [ul] > [li]There is no purpose for being[/li][li]There is no such thing as right and wrong[/li][li]There is nothing that we, as humans, who have no purpose, can do or say which will affect reality[/li][/ul] > > \*\* [ul] [li]I define my purpose for being.[/li][li]I have a sense of right and wrong. I want a functional society, where I do not have to fear having my person or property being attacked.[/li][li]I can move a chair. I am affecting reality.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > Therefore, any belief in the absence of God is a belief based in a fictional world and has no affect or basis in reality. Science can discover all it wants, but who is to say that it makes sense, because with no purpose, there is no such thing as sense. > \*\* Sciene is all about understanding physical reality, finding out how physical reality works. Having a purpose is independent of believing in God. Or do you think that non-sentinent matter has no purpose, because after all, it can’t think and therefore can’t believe in a God. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > Again, I am making a philosophical point. There are other philosophical “points” which can be made to disprove the existence of God. i.e. The “Rock so big God can’t lift it” argument. Again, any attempt to remove God (and therefore purpose) removes the definitions of “logic, sense and reality” so the argument falls apart. > > Philosophically speaking of course. 🙂 \*\* How do you know that reality has a purpose? What is God’s purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/222 "2001-10-04T18:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satasha \* > \*\*Atheism, by definition is a lack of belief in gods, due to a lack of objective evidence. That is a much more logical position to take than belief with no evidence. \*\* But how can logic exist without purpose? If we are “just here”, a result of random occurrences, which had no intelligent design. Who is to say that your thoughts are not also just random events. The use of logic to disprove the existence of logic. Another circular argument generally used by non-believers. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/223 "2001-10-04T18:50:44Z")
Çyrin: A moral system can be based on compassion, a rational sense of fair play and most of all empathy. Once again no deity needed. I have it. If you want to get cynical, it can be expalined as psychological adapataions for cooperation, emapathy and pack order, selected for by the processes of evolution. Think about it. A group of ancient humans had alot better chance of survival if they cooperated (golden rule), didn’t kill within the group (though shall not kill) were comforting to each other when in distress or emergency and respected order (pack hierarchy). In fact killers (within the pack) would be probably driven out or killed and therfore would have a harder time mating, therefore much of those “killer psycho” genes never got passed on and a taboo against killing and raping (within the pack)would probably evolve. Unfortanatly some psycho genes did pass on. Anyway, as I said: no god needed. ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/224 "2001-10-04T18:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > \*\*Again, Right or Wrong. But according to whom. To you? To the guy sitting next to you? Why do we all seem to have the same sense of right and wrong? why do we instinctively know that it is bad to kill people? Why did those terrorists have to use religion to justify killing all those Americans? why can’t we stand back and say, Well, I guess that was just their purpose here, Killing is Ok according to them. The fact that righteousness exists, that we condemn people for terrible acts like those on Sept 11 proves to me that we are all influenced by the same moral code. Who is coordinating that? why do we all come to the same conclusions concerning morality? Why don’t small children born in the Jungle of Africa, pick up sharp sticks and kill their families because they just think it’s right? Because God exists and he gives us that moral code when we are born. You can’t explain it any other way (unless you can, and if so I’d like to hear it). \*\* Cyrin, if there is no morality or right/wrong without God, then should we believe that morality can’t exist in any part of the world until it starts to believe in the supernatural? If morality flows from God and given the differences in religious beliefs between all cultures, then how did so many people around the world come to have similar morals with regard to murder, thief, etc…? {Dude, I may not have agreed with the many thing’s you’ve said in this thread and have not said much about them, but even _ **I** _ think this reasoning is a bit wacky.) ---
**Author:** ![MeCorva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@MeCorva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeCorva)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/225 "2001-10-04T18:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok, but I’ve been told that atheists don’t believe in anything. An absence of belief. Even still, if two atheists come up with different purposes, who is to say who is right? So then, why can’t each atheist go on and do whatever he or she desires. i.e. Killing people. I think it’s ok, so i am going to go on and kill people, and who are you to tell me I am wrong. If there is nothing but us then who are we accountable to? No one. So do whatever you want then, without fear of weather it is right or wrong. Oh dear. Cyrin, part of the reason everyone jumped on you so much when you suggested that atheists have never really searched is because by showing how little you know about atheists, you insult them accidentally. And, here you do it again. Believe it or not, the search to be a constantly better person is not limited to people who are religious – in fact, it doesn’t even seem to be particularly clustered towards religious people ( but that is completely MY opinion. ) Atheists, just like theists, try to be better people. Atheists, just like theists, occasionally disagree. Look, there are southern baptists who are devoutly republican, and southern baptists who are devoutly democratic. When they disagree, they attempt to communicate, attempt to debate, and if worst comes to worst, agree to disagree. But, atheistic morality is very difficult, very personal, and generally takes a fair amount of thought. If you just dismiss it without learning about it, you do a great disservice to people who spend their entire lives attempting to define atheistic morality for themselves and others. Please, read some threads ( There is a search function ), and, then, if you have specific comments, start a new thread on problems with particular parts of atheistic morality. But to just blindly go wandering in shows a lack of respect, and people _WILL_ go apopleptic. :\< Just to give you a simple idea – you can’t say atheists aren’t accountable – we can still be jailed, just like theists. So, certain rules that make society run smoother but aren’t necessarily immoral ( traffic laws ) can be implemented just by mob rule – if everyone agrees and follows the rules, everyone is happier. If one person disregards the rules, they benefit but everyone else loses, so rules are put in place to punish people so they won’t be that one person. This works surprisingly well in many cases without needing an Absolute Accountable Deity in the end. Me’Corva ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/226 "2001-10-04T18:56:59Z")
That’s the amazing thing about life Çyrin, it apparently creates order out of chaos and fends off entropy for a time. Read a biology textbook if you don’t believe me. The design argument among others has been debunked. I refer you to the “Athests handbook” (a real book). ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/227 "2001-10-04T19:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satasha \* > \*\*Çyrin: > A moral system can be based on compassion, a rational sense of fair play and most of all empathy. Once again no deity needed. I have it. If you want to get cynical, it can be expalined as psychological adapataions for cooperation, emapathy and pack order, selected for by the processes of evolution. Think about it. A group of ancient humans had alot better chance of survival if they cooperated (golden rule), didn’t kill within the group (though shall not kill) were comforting to each other when in distress or emergency and respected order (pack hierarchy). In fact killers (within the pack) would be probably driven out or killed and therfore would have a harder time mating, therefore much of those “killer psycho” genes never got passed on and a taboo against killing and raping (within the pack)would probably evolve. Unfortanatly some psycho genes did pass on. Anyway, as I said: no god needed. \*\* Well done, I have a hard time arguing that point. But “You’re not out yet!” Explain purpose, understanding and our thought process without a intelligent designer. Random events cannot turn to intelligent process, so why do we consider our thoughts to be intelligent? If our brains evolved through a sequence of random events then shouldn’t they produce random thought? ---
**Author:** ![telechus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@telechus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telechus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/228 "2001-10-04T19:06:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > Well done, I have a hard time arguing that point. But “You’re not out yet!” > > Explain purpose, understanding and our thought process without a intelligent designer. Random events cannot turn to intelligent process, so why do we consider our thoughts to be intelligent? If our brains evolved through a sequence of random events then shouldn’t they produce random thought? \*\* The laws of physics are not random. The only randomness is the environmental factors that select for fitness. Random thoughts by themselves are unsuitable in almost any realistic environment, although augmented with strong instincts might be useful in fostering creativity/problem solving. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/229 "2001-10-04T19:09:50Z")
**Me’Corva** , please go back and read what I said. You have circumvented my point and disproved nothing. You are still arguing inside a bigger issue. Drawing conclusions which disprove the method used to draw them. I don’t have a problem with atheistic morality, as I said before **Maximum Override** is a great example of someone I see living his life in a morally acceptable way. That said, through philosophy, his belief system removes any reason for his actions. He still acts morally, he just contradicts his own beliefs in doing so. (Sorry Maximum, but I had to drag you back in here for that UT comment :D) ---
**Author:** ![telechus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@telechus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telechus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/230 "2001-10-04T19:14:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > \*\ ***Me’Corva** , please go back and read what I said. You have circumvented my point and disproved nothing. You are still arguing inside a bigger issue. Drawing conclusions which disprove the method used to draw them. > > I don’t have a problem with atheistic morality, as I said before **Maximum Override** is a great example of someone I see living his life in a morally acceptable way. That said, through philosophy, his belief system removes any reason for his actions. He still acts morally, he just contradicts his own beliefs in doing so. (Sorry Maximum, but I had to drag you back in here for that UT comment :D) \*\* How is behaving in manner that a person thinks is beneficial to him/herself and those around them in contradiction with the idea that God told him/her to. How do you know it was God’s idea to behave that way to begin with? Or that its even God telling you to do this. Perhaps there are two deities up in heaven arguing over what is right and wrong, and you choosing to listen to one of them. How do you know this isn’t the case? ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/231 "2001-10-04T19:14:48Z")
Some of the recent arguments (if there is no God, then what is our purpose, etc.,) are coming awfully close to being emotional appeals; it’s back to the Creationists’ complaint that we _must_ be more than animals, because we’re _special_! I think the desire to believe in God goes hand in hand with a desire to feel special. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/232 "2001-10-04T19:15:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by telechus \* > **The laws of physics are not random.** True. Who said anything about physics being Random? > [@](#): > > \*\*The only randomness is the environmental factors that select for fitness. Random thoughts by themselves are unsuitable in almost any realistic environment, although augmented with strong instincts might be useful in fostering creativity/problem solving. \*\* Ok, my question is then, where did your instinct, creativity/ability to problem solve (logical thinking) come from? I used the term Random because it has been used to describe the process of evolution and our method of coming into being. Therefore if we came into being as a result of randomness, how can we possibly have a purpose? ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/233 "2001-10-04T19:16:23Z")
Explain purpose, understanding and our thought process without a intelligent designer. Random events cannot turn to intelligent process, so why do we consider our thoughts to be intelligent? If our brains evolved through a sequence of random events then shouldn’t they produce random thought? I am not sure what you mean by purpose. Do you mean grand purpose to life or do you mean motivations of humans? I already told you that I do not hold a belief (because I have no evidence) for a grand purpose. Motivations, the ability to understand and make sense (somewhat) our envirioment, logical thought and the multitudinaly and vaugely defined “intelligence” can all be seen as evolutionary adapatations to enhance our survival and therefore mating chances, selected for by the enviroment through Random mutations in our genes. Random mutations of genes are a proven fact ( antibiotic restant bacteria ect.) The useful mutations (adaptations) by thier nature are selected for in species. Once again, no gods needed. Çyrin, this is getting boring. Believe what you wish. If you want my views, they can be found in “The Atheists handbook.” That also adresses why I don’t need to prove a negative to you. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/234 "2001-10-04T19:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by telechus \* > \*\*How is behaving in manner that a person thinks is beneficial to him/herself and those around them in contradiction with the idea that God told him/her to. How do you know it was God’s idea to behave that way to begin with? Or that its even God telling you to do this. Perhaps there are two deities up in heaven arguing over what is right and wrong, and you choosing to listen to one of them. How do you know this isn’t the case? \*\* Close. There are two beings. God, who tells us what is right and wrong, and Satan and his demons who try to pervert that which God says as to make it seem “ok” to do certain things. If it weren’t for Satan, you would all agree with me. (Of course this would be heaven and a whole bunch of other stuff would be completely different but that is a whole other discussion altogether) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/235 "2001-10-04T19:24:13Z")
I dunno about you folks, but this isn’t a debate, great or otherwise. It’s just **Cyrin** flouting his ignorance and everyone else being flabbergasted in response. If one could stick a :rolleyes: on an entire thread, this would be it. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cyrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/236 "2001-10-04T19:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satasha \* > \*\*Have a nice day. \*\* Thanks. You too! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/237 "2001-10-04T19:33:34Z")
> [@](#): > > . If it weren’t for Satan, you would all agree with me. So you’re discounting that whole free will thing? ---
**Author:** ![Kwyjibo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@Kwyjibo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kwyjibo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/238 "2001-10-04T19:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > \*\*(Sorry Maximum, but I had to drag you back in here for that UT comment :D) \*\* Sorry dude…“nah-ganna happen”. 😉 I’m even at the point where I can’t get around what you’re trying to saying… I am leaving it at “We agree to disagree.” **Everyone:** Cyrin really is a nice guy, even I haven’t seen this wacky side of him. I am not gonna continue in here for fear of being “Wacky by Association” 😉 Have fun! STEP Step step [sub]step[/sub] \ ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/239 "2001-10-04T19:36:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > [BClose. There are two beings. God, who tells us what is right and wrong, and Satan and his demons who try to pervert that which God says as to make it seem “ok” to do certain things. If it weren’t for Satan, you would all agree with me. (Of course this would be heaven and a whole bunch of other stuff would be completely different but that is a whole other discussion altogether) \*\* Have you considered therapy? Or possibly medication? ---
**Author:** ![telechus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@telechus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telechus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042/240 "2001-10-04T19:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Çyrin \* > \*\ ***Me’Corva** , please go back and read what I said. You have circumvented my point and disproved nothing. You are still arguing inside a bigger issue. Drawing conclusions which disprove the method used to draw them. > > I don’t have a problem with atheistic morality, as I said before **Maximum Override** is a great example of someone I see living his life in a morally acceptable way. That said, through philosophy, his belief system removes any reason for his actions. He still acts morally, he just contradicts his own beliefs in doing so. (Sorry Maximum, but I had to drag you back in here for that UT comment :D) \*\* How is behaving in manner that a person thinks is beneficial to him/herself and those around them in contradiction with the idea that God told him/her to. How do you know it was God’s idea to behave that way to begin with? Or that its even God telling you to do this. Perhaps there are two deities up in heaven arguing over what is right and wrong, and you choosing to listen to one of them. How do you know this isn’t the case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-prove-to-me-that-god-doesnt-exist/85042.md?page=13)