# Can subtle glances at breastas be considered a compliment? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709 "2001-08-29T15:08:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/81 "2001-08-30T21:21:31Z")
All I know is that I don’t think I want to be **Jodi’s** co-worker… ---
**Author:** ![BickByro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@BickByro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BickByro)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/82 "2001-08-30T21:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magdalene \* > \*\*The idea that men cannot “control” their urges towards woman is why the Taliban force women to cover themselves completely and why St. Paul encouraged women to cover themselves so that they don’t sin by provoking lustful thoughts in men. I think that logic is indefensible anywhere, and certainly indefensible in the American workplace. \*\* This is true in part, but there’s a secondary argument implicit in the issue at hand: that women have any possible _natural_ reason to be offended by men’s “lustful thoughts.” Why are such thoughts to be prevented? Why should it bother any woman to have her breasts looked at? Why should it even bother a woman to know in her heart of hearts that some man just got an erection by looking at her? As much as some women here seem to feel it weak that men would say “I can’t help it,” can they give any reason better than “I can’t help it” for why they feel offended? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/83 "2001-08-30T21:32:57Z")
REVTIM – > [@](#): > > Makes no sense? Are you seriously saying that every urge takes exactly the same amount of effort the resist? I hope I’m misunderstanding you, because you are one of the few posters here who I have noticed that I almost always agree with. I have a lot of respect for your opinion (obviously we differ on this issue), but if you are actually arguing that it takes the same amount of effort not to shit on the floor as it does to prevent one of the tiny muscles of the eye to not aim it at an item that catches your eye, then you are obviously off the deep end on this one. I don’t think so. First I never said it took _the exact same amount_ of effort to resist doing both; what I said is that you are _capable_ of resisting both. Although, for that matter, I would say it probably takes _less_ effort to keep your eyes pointed above my neck than it does to resist going to the bathroom when you really need to. The _amount_ of effort does not concern me in the least; even if it takes a supreme act of will and iron self-control to keep from staring at my breasts, that is what I expect you to do. > [@](#): > > What galls me the most about this issue is that you think you have the right to tell me I cannot even glance at something for even the barest of split seconds. _Au contraire_. I obviously have no ability to tell you where to point your eyes. The OP asked if this was something women objected to; obviously, for some of us at least, the answer is “yes.” The only beef I have with _you_, particularly, is what I consider a lame-ass attempt to excuse the behavior based upon an inability to control it. > [@](#): > > I agree men shouldn’t stare, but for Christ’s sake, you have look at something first to identify that it’s something you shouldn’t be looking at! Really. You have not gathered, from your years of experience, that breasts are standard equipment on grown-up females? You have to check and see that we all come equipped with a the standard one pair each? > [@](#): > > And please tell which sense I should use to inform my eyes that there are breasts in the direction I want to aim them at, since obviously I can’t actually LOOK in that direction to identify what is there without being a drooling, uncontrolled pervert. I never said you were a drooling, uncontrolled pervert, nor did I ever say that “the flick” was a sign of drooling, uncontrolled pervert-hood. What I said is that when it is noticed, it is not appreciated, at least by some of us. Although, to answer your question, I would think you might safely assume that approximately one foot below a female face you will find a pair of female breasts. Again, we are not talking about skimming over as your eyes travel from A to B. Nor or we talking about looking accidentally. We are talking about the intentional glancing at women’s breasts just to get a gander at 'em. > [@](#): > > And let’s ignore the sexual aspect of this. Suppose I walk into a room, and say “OK, nobody can look at my left elbow. Not even for the split second.” What fucking gall to order people that their eyes cannot even for a split second look at something in the room! And this is even without a deeply ingrained sexual response. How do you leave out the sexual response? Do you seriously argue that men are walking around looking at women’s breasts for non-sexual reasons? C’mon. Furthermore, no one has said anything about making announcements leading to psychological difficulties – the equivalent of saying “don’t think about bananas.” The question is “Is the covert glancing at women’s breasts at work okay?” The answer, at least for this woman, is “No.” I am afraid I am not willing to allow you to make more or less of this than there is to it. Again, MAGDALENE has said what I wanted to both better and shorter. What I have objected to in your posts, REVTIM, is the idea that this is some “deeply ingrained urge” that it is just asking too much to expect you knuckle-dragging men to control. Again, I guess I must expect more of men than you do, because I _do_ expect you to control it when you know or ought to know it is neither appropriate nor welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/84 "2001-08-30T21:39:15Z")
RJUNG – > [@](#): > > All I know is that I don’t think I want to be Jodi’s co-worker… I don’t know why not. I get the flick all the time and don’t so much as mention it. No, I put up with it as a small price for doing business and privately thing a little less of the men who do it repeatedly and who think they’re being oh-so-subtle about it, when they are not. But if someone ASKS if I appreciate it, as has been done here, the answer is “No, I do not.” But God forbid I object to having my breasts looked at when I’m at work – _even when asked_ – because it must mean I’m some humorless sexless harridan out to emasculate men. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/85 "2001-08-30T21:39:40Z")
**BickByro** , we aren’t talking about looking at breasts _in general_, we are talking about the workplace. Women have been fighting for 100 years for equal pay, equal opportunity and equal recognition, and part of that means not being made to feel like sexual objects on a daily basis as part of our jobs. When someone accidentally glances at my boobs, I’m not offended. When I’m out at night in a low-cut black dress and someone appreciates the way I look, I’m not offended. Occasional, accidental, or subtle glances are not offensive. Observable ogling is annoying and offensive. If you were my boss, and you told me that “looking at your breasts gives me an erection” I would give you the dressing down of your life. Because in the modern workplace there is an agreed-upon standard of behavior that precludes sexually explicit behavior between professionals. Do you also check out the tits and asses of your male colleagues? Then don’t check out mine, at least where I can see you. Like I said, obvious looking does not constitute harrassment, unless it’s so obvious that further conversation with you is impossible. Guys who haven’t picked up the art of the subtle once-over are probably underdeveloped in other social areas, but they need to know that it’s unacceptable in a place of employment. ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/86 "2001-08-30T21:42:27Z")
Good God, **Bick**. You’re being told your behavior can be offensive in the workplace. Your continued insistence that it’s OK doesn’t make it any less offensive. In fact, having been told about the offense and refusing to listen makes it worse. Not only that, but if any of my male co-workers are running to the men’s room for a coffee-break wank-fest after staring at **any** body part of mine, or walking around sporting wood if I bend over to pick up a pen, I DO NOT want to know about it. Eeew. That’s the same feeling I’d get from a flasher jumping out of a dark alley. Bleagh. Eeew. Ick. Pass the Lysol. I agree that it’s completely different in a non-business context. My co-workers, though, are not my social group, nor are they potential mates in any way. They are the people I am paid to interact with. I am there only because it is my livelihood, NOT because I want to give them erections. ---
**Author:** ![Lexicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ac8455/32.png) [@Lexicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lexicon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/87 "2001-08-30T22:47:18Z")
Hey Jodi? If I wanted you to open your mouth, I’d have told you to suck my dick. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/88 "2001-08-30T23:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey Jodi? If I wanted you to open your mouth, I’d have told you to suck my dick. Huh. That comment would really bother me if I knew who you were or gave a shit what you thought. Fortunately for me, I don’t. What I _do_ want, Captain Maturity, is for you to read the forum descriptions and post accordingly. Invitations for me to suck your dick belong in the Pit, where I promise you I will give them the same amount of attention, and you the same amount of respect. ---
**Author:** ![BickByro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@BickByro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BickByro)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/89 "2001-08-30T23:33:32Z")
**magdalene:** > [@](#): > > Women have been fighting for 100 years for equal pay, equal opportunity and equal recognition, and part of that means not being made to feel like sexual objects on a daily basis as part of our jobs… Occasional, accidental, or subtle glances are not offensive. I’m glad we’re in agreement, then. Receiving “the flick” does not equate to “being made to feel like a sexual object.” Frankly, though, I’m a bit skeptical of these women coming out of the woodwork to say “oh, yeah, please treat me as a sexual object when we’re in a bar but don’t even THINK about my tits at work.” And when did the office become some platonic realm into which the concerns of the worldly flesh may not cross? It seems only women (and only some women, at that) have come to the conclusion that “there is an agreed-upon standard of behavior that precludes sexually explicit behavior between professionals” (if you can even call “the flick” explicit). > [@](#): > > Do you also check out the tits and asses of your male colleagues? Then don’t check out mine, at least where I can see you. Why? I figure you’ll do the checking-out of my male colleagues for me. **seawitch:** > [@](#): > > Good God, Bick. You’re being told your behavior can be offensive in the workplace. Your continued insistence that it’s OK doesn’t make it any less offensive. In fact, having been told about the offense and refusing to listen makes it worse. Cry me a river. Your continued insistence that it is NOT okay doesn’t prove to me that you don’t just have some complex about your body/sexuality that makes you cringe when a member of the opposite sex has the audacity to glance at your breasts. Why should I suffer for it? I mean, some of you women are treating your breasts as though they were an aberration—the rhetoric seems very similar to what a handicapped, deformed or disfigured person might think (“don’t glance at my missing-finger stump!”) > [@](#): > > Not only that, but if any of my male co-workers are running to the men’s room for a coffee-break wank-fest after staring at any body part of mine, or walking around sporting wood if I bend over to pick up a pen, I DO NOT want to know about it. Great. Now could you explain why, without resorting to some sort of societal-convention argument about how sex is dirty and gross and shameful and unnatural, etc.? > [@](#): > > I agree that it’s completely different in a non-business context. As I said above, I find it hard to believe that you could be so excited to know some guy at the bar is jacking off thinking about your tits but if your coworker does it, “pass the Lysol.” Your only justification seems to be that, at the bar, you WANT to give guys erections. Well, tough shit, we’re gonna get them whether you like it or not. If you don’t like thinking about it, that’s fine. But I don’t see why you wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/90 "2001-08-30T23:39:19Z")
“even if it takes a supreme act of will and iron self-control to keep from staring at my breasts, that is what I expect you to do.” Jodi, Rather than have all men conform to your wish and exercise control, wouldnt you prefer the situation is as it is now where some men do ogle but most men don’t? So as to give you a better idea of who the dirtbags are? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/91 "2001-08-30T23:40:39Z")
I don’t go to bars. I don’t go to parties dressed to turn men on. I have absolutely no interest in that. It’s amazing that you’re surprised to find out that the office is for professional interaction. ---
**Author:** ![BickByro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@BickByro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BickByro)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/92 "2001-08-30T23:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bluethree \* > \*\*It’s amazing that you’re surprised to find out that the office is for professional interaction. \*\* It’s amazing that you’re naive enough to think that’s _all_ it’s for… ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/93 "2001-08-31T00:03:15Z")
BICK – > [@](#): > > Frankly, though, I’m a bit skeptical of these women coming out of the woodwork to say “oh, yeah, please treat me as a sexual object when we’re in a bar but don’t even THINK about my tits at work.” And when did the office become some platonic realm into which the concerns of the worldly flesh may not cross? Um, always? Under what rationale would it be appropriate to address “concerns of the worldly flesh” in the office – ever, but _especially_ when such attentions are not welcome to one party? The fact is that men didn’t “concern themselves with worldly flesh” when they worked with only each other. But send a _woman_ in and she was a “distraction” or a “decoration” – in other words, something other than a colleague you were expected to treat as you would every other colleague – which is to say, non-sexually. > [@](#): > > It seems only women (and only some women, at that) have come to the conclusion that “there is an agreed-upon standard of behavior that precludes sexually explicit behavior between professionals” (if you can even call “the flick” explicit). Wrong, oh posting one. The agreed-upon standard of behavior is that you do not consider a woman sexually when you are dealing with her professionally – at least you don’t if you get caught, or unless you’re absolutely sure she welcomes it. There has _never_ been any place for “sexually explicit behavior” in the professionaly realm – unless the “old boys’ club” included some behavior I’m not aware of. The fact that women are now in that world doesn’t make it any more appropriate – _especially_ when the attention, however innocently meant, is unwelcome by the person receiving it. > [@](#): > > I figure you’ll do the checking-out of my male colleagues for me. Well, here’s a news flash: I don’t. I certainly note an attractive man when I see one, but I’d like to think I do not, by glance nor behavior, allow him to see I am addressing him in any manner except strictly professionally. _Certainly_ I don’t give him “the flick.” Why would I do to anyone else something that makes me uncomfortable? As I have said, I think a little less of a guy that does this – why would I want a man I’m attracted to to think less of me? > [@](#): > > Your continued insistence that it is NOT okay doesn’t prove to me that you don’t just have some complex about your body/sexuality that makes you cringe when a member of the opposite sex has the audacity to glance at your breasts. Right! A woman who doesn’t appreciate having her breasts looked at must have a complex! :rolleyes: The fact of the matter is, no one posting here has said that she _always_ objects to being looked at sexually. But some of us have clearly said we do _not_ like it when we are at work. I realize it makes our position easier to criticize if you can extrapolate it to be something it’s not (“She must mean she thinks ‘the flick’ is sexual harassment!” “She must mean she doesn’t like a man to notice her breasts under any circumstances _ever_!”). But that’s not what we have said. XANAKIS – > [@](#): > > Rather than have all men conform to your wish and exercise control, wouldnt you prefer the situation is as it is now where some men do ogle but most men don’t? So as to give you a better idea of who the dirtbags are? I have never said that men who do “the flick” are “dirtbags.” I don’t think they are. I just said I don’t appreciate it. “Dirtbag-hood” is contingent on many other factors, and on conduct far more egregious than glancing at my breasts. I would certainly prefer that no one do it, at least not to me when I’m at work. I fairly confident I’d be able to spot the dirtbags anyway. I’m amazed at the insistence of some of the male posters here to willfully misrepresent what we are saying. If you say you don’t want to know if a man gets an erection at work, that must mean you purposely give him on in a bar (you cock-tease, you). If you don’t like having your breasts admired in the office, that must mean you think you’re deformed. I can only assume it would be a lot harder to argue with what we are _really_ saying which is: “Well, no, we don’t like ‘the flick’ at work, since you asked, and since we don’t like it we’d prefer you didn’t do it.” The end. ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/94 "2001-08-31T00:24:36Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by BickByro \* \*\ ***magdalene:** > [@](#): > > Women have been fighting for 100 years for equal pay, equal opportunity and equal recognition, and part of that means not being made to feel like sexual objects on a daily basis as part of our jobs… Occasional, accidental, or subtle glances are not offensive. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BickByro: \*\*\* > I’m glad we’re in agreement, then. Receiving “the flick” does not equate to “being made to feel like a sexual object.” > > Frankly, though, I’m a bit skeptical of these women coming out of the woodwork to say “oh, yeah, please treat me as a sexual object when we’re in a bar but don’t even THINK about my tits at work.” And when did the office become some platonic realm into which the concerns of the worldly flesh may not cross? It seems only women (and only some women, at that) have come to the conclusion that “there is an agreed-upon standard of behavior that precludes sexually explicit behavior between professionals” (if you can even call “the flick” explicit).\*\* BickByro, I beilieve you are missing a nubmer of issues raised here. Unwelcome attention that makes another human being feel uncomfortable is unacceptable in any social context by civilized human beings. It matters not what a person is wearing, or the social context in which you are seeing them. Moving to the workplace, a long and difficult struggle has been taking place to afford women equal professional opportunities in our society. Women are entitled to a healthy professional environment, free of harassment, put-downs, or demeaning treatment. All human beings have sexual urges and sexual traits. All mature, considerate, and healthy human beings are capable of controlling sexual urges in order to prevent inappropriate actions from offending others. It doesn’t matter whether or not you agree with the reason another person finds your behavior offensive, provided that the other person is applying a reasonable standard to assessing your behavior as offensive. I don’t understand why it is so difficult to communicate the need for consideration and respect toward all co-workers in a professional workplace. I tend to regard people who are especially slow at picking up on this need as sociallly backward individuals. ---
**Author:** ![BickByro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@BickByro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BickByro)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/95 "2001-08-31T00:30:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > The fact is that men didn’t “concern themselves with worldly flesh” when they worked with only each other. That’s a load of crap, **Jodi**. You know those stories you hear about women who are offended, “harassed,” even, by men with pin-up calendars, tip-the-pen-and-the-girl’s-clothes-come-off writing implements, or other “blue” material in their cubicles? Do you think we just started acquiring these things to antagonize you ladies? No, we were looking at them long before that, but suddenly women come into the workforce and tell us that we can no longer look at our nudie calendars, pass around our novelty pens, tell dirty jokes or talk about the hot number we saw at the bar last night. And GOD FORBID we try to replace any of those distractions by glancing at your tits every so often. You seem to overidealize the workplace—perhaps one of the reasons so many women were so eager to get into it in the first place, before they realized that as often as not it’s a soul-sucking bother. Especially now that we aren’t allowed to think about sex. > [@](#): > > The agreed-upon standard of behavior is that you do not consider a woman sexually when you are dealing with her professionally I don’t recall being consulted for this. Was it ever put to a vote? Who are the parties who have agreed upon this “standard”? > [@](#): > > I certainly note an attractive man when I see one, but I’d like to think I do not, by glance nor behavior, allow him to see I am addressing him in any manner except strictly professionally. _Certainly_ I don’t give him “the flick.” Why would I do to anyone else something that makes me uncomfortable? Well, it doesn’t _have_ to make you feel uncomfortable. To go back to the extreme case (a far cry from “the flick,” to be sure), God knows I’d be a happy man if I had reason to believe some girl at work was so turned on by me that she had to go to the ladies’ room and masturbate. That the inverse thought so repulses so many women only goes to show, to my mind, that most women haven’t gotten beyond our culture’s inherited Victorian prudishness. I mean, sure, maybe if the guy’s REALLY gross you wouldn’t want to visualize it. But it’s really not that big a deal. So he spanked it and thought about you. Get over it. > [@](#): > > As I have said, I think a little less of a guy that does this – why would I want a man I’m attracted to to think less of me? I can virtually assure you he would not. > [@](#): > > Right! A woman who doesn’t appreciate having her breasts looked at must have a complex! :rolleyes: I don’t think we can safely rule it out. When the thought of a MAN actually having an ERECTION prompts a woman to want to “pass the Lysol,” I’d say there’s a fair chance she’s got some hang-ups. > [@](#): > > I realize it makes our position easier to criticize if you can extrapolate it to be something it’s not (“She must mean she thinks ‘the flick’ is sexual harassment!”) Many have said just that, **Jodi**. I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth here. > [@](#): > > If you say you don’t want to know if a man gets an erection at work, that must mean you purposely give him on in a bar (you cock-tease, you). Are you actually reading this thread? **Seawitch** said: > [@](#): > > if any of my male co-workers are running to the men’s room for a coffee-break wank-fest after staring at any body part of mine… I DO NOT want to know about it… I agree that it’s completely different in a non-business context. That to me implies that erections “off the clock” are just fine, if not in fact desirable. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/96 "2001-08-31T00:48:21Z")
I said “The fact is that men didn’t ‘concern themselves with worldly flesh’ when they worked with only each other,” to which BICK replies: [quote] That’s a load of crap, Jodi. You know those stories you hear about women who are offended, “harassed,” even, by men with pin-up calendars, tip-the-pen-and-the-girl’s-clothes-come-off writing implements, or other “blue” material in their cubicles? Do you think we just started acquiring these things to antagonize you ladies?[/quiote] You missed my point, which is not surprising since it was not very well made. What I was saying is that men did not ‘concern themselves with the worldly flesh’ _of their colleagues_ when it was just guys. Unless you seriously want to tell me that straight men view each other as sexually as they view women. > [@](#): > > No, we were looking at them long before that, but suddenly women come into the workforce and tell us that we can no longer look at our nudie calendars, pass around our novelty pens, tell dirty jokes or talk about the hot number we saw at the bar last night. And GOD FORBID we try to replace any of those distractions by glancing at your tits every so often. Damn straight – GOD FORBID. Your nudie calendars, your dirty jokes, your stories of the hot number at the bar . . . they _offended_ your female colleagues and that’s why you were asked to get rid of them. Now you complain that you’re not allowed to act like the sexist little piggy you were before . . . well, cry me a river. One of the trade-offs of having women in the workplace is a few adjustments by men to give them a workplace that is not offensive or hostile. > [@](#): > > You seem to overidealize the workplace—perhaps one of the reasons so many women were so eager to get into it in the first place, before they realized that as often as not it’s a soul-sucking bother. Especially now that we aren’t allowed to think about sex. Oh, right, we’ve just idealized the workplace – not a woman in the world knows what it means to work, and work hard, for her dollar – no, wait, for her 70 cents on the dollar. And no one here has said you can’t think about sex. You may continue to try to misrepresent what has been said, but I will continue to call you on it every time. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall being consulted for this. Was it ever put to a vote? Who are the parties who have agreed upon this “standard”? The courts. And what the courts say is that if your behavior creates a hostile work environment for a woman based upon her gender, your ass will be fired for it. And rightly so. > [@](#): > > Well, it doesn’t have to make you feel uncomfortable. What does this mean? It _does_ make me feel uncomfortable. I have said so, repeatedly. I do not appreciate having my breasts admired at work. I’m frankly flabbergasted to find that anyone would in all seriousness suggest that the solution is for me to get over it rather than for a man to refrain from doing it. Again, I don’t make a big deal over ‘the flick’ – or any deal, for that matter – but damned if I’ll like it. > [@](#): > > To go back to the extreme case (a far cry from “the flick,” to be sure), God knows I’d be a happy man if I had reason to believe some girl at work was so turned on by me that she had to go to the ladies’ room and masturbate. That the inverse thought so repulses so many women only goes to show, to my mind, that most women haven’t gotten beyond our culture’s inherited Victorian prudishness. I mean, sure, maybe if the guy’s REALLY gross you wouldn’t want to visualize it. But it’s really not that big a deal. So he spanked it and thought about you. Get over it. Sometimes a statement’s qualities shine forth in such glory that a comment would merely detract. In other words, I think this position speaks for itself. > [@](#): > > Many have said just that, Jodi. I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth here. Actually, you are, and I hereby challenge you to find ONE INSTANCE in this thread where ANY WOMAN has said ‘the flick’ constitutes sexual harassment. I’ll wait here. ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/97 "2001-08-31T00:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BickByro \* > \*\* > Your continued insistence that it is NOT okay doesn’t prove to me that you don’t just have some complex about your body/sexuality that makes you cringe when a member of the opposite sex has the audacity to glance at your breasts._\* You couldn’t be more wrong about me or my sexuality. It is, however, lovely to see you once again try to make other people responsible for your behavior. If you are so very certain your actions are correct, you should at the very least take responsibility for them. > [@](#): > > \*\*Great. Now could you explain why, without resorting to some sort of societal-convention argument about how sex is dirty and gross and shameful and unnatural, etc.? \*\* Sex is certainly not dirty, unnatural, gross, or shameful. It’s fabulous. But it **isn’t** part of the office. For that matter, churchgoers probably think you shouldn’t jack off in the confessional. Different behaviors are acceptable in different environments. Why is this so hard for you? If I’d rather not think about co-workers and their erections, it might be the people themselves I find distasteful. If you think that your “trouser salute” is an automatic thrill, you might be overestimating your appeal. ---
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/98 "2001-08-31T00:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BickByro \* > \*\* > I don’t think we can safely rule it out. When the thought of a MAN actually having an ERECTION prompts a woman to want to “pass the Lysol,” I’d say there’s a fair chance she’s got some hang-ups. \*\* I’d say there’s a fair chance she doesn’t consider the man in question in a sexual context. **Bick** , if a woman doesn’t want to think about you and your erections, have you ever considered that the problem might be you and not her? If a woman doesn’t want a specific man, it could be because she doesn’t find him attractive. It doesn’t have to mean she’s “got hang-ups”. ---
**Author:** ![Beltane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@Beltane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beltane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/99 "2001-08-31T01:30:35Z")
It seems to me that there are about a thousand different shades of grey in this issue. On the one extreme we have a quick glance at someone’s breast, possibly even unintentionally, that only lasts an instance, from a position where it is impossible to be noticed. On the other hand we have obvious leering, while actually engaging in direct conversation. Any reasonable person will agree that the first is no big deal, while the second is absolutely unacceptable in a business environment. No one seems to addressed this quote from the OP > [@](#): > > Sometimes, it’s obvious a woman is strictly business or isn’t interested. Fine. Gaze met and held. But other times, during casual flirting and whatnot, is a quick glance ever taken as the sign of appreciation it’s meant to be? I seems to me, that if a woman is actually flirting with someone, a glance a her breasts can hardly be taken as overly lecherous behavior… but then the problem becomes “what is flirting?” Perhaps one person’s niceness can be mistaken for flirting. As to what most posters seem to be referring to > [@](#): > > at least some men, have hard wired (sorry) in their system an inclination to casually glance at a woman’s breasts during a conversation. As long as we don’t gawk, is this considered offensive? > > I really do try and be discreet. If posed a question, I’ll look down at my feet to ponder which requires her to employ a protractor to really know where my gaze lies. I would tend to say that _breaking_ eye contact to look at someone’s breasts would be simply too obvious to not send a signal that you were objectifying the person in question. (This goes for any other secondary sexual characteristic as well, not to mention primary.) This would obviously be moot in the case of the prior example, and possibly other reasonable examples as well. (such as wearing tube top so tight your nipples are your most prominent features on casual Fridays even though it is expressly forbidden in the dress code to wear tube tops. - I have actually seen this, BTW) Other people have weighed in with comment about not being able to help looking at a woman’s breast, etc. Is this really meant in the context of having a face-to-face conversation, as described in the quote above? I do not feel it is reasonable to expect that men \*\* never \*\*look at a woman’s breast in a business setting, although I am sure there are those who disagree. I look at women’s breasts, particularly if they are large or deliberately displayed. I do it subtly and without calling attention to the fact that I am doing it. I think most women would never know that I have looked at their breasts. If they did, they would probably not give it a second thought, as most everyone knows that I am gay. My point is this. Yes, men (and lesbians) are going to look at women’s breasts, Yes, even gay men and straight women are going to look at women’s breasts. Unless you have good reason to believe it is welcomed, however, do try to avoid doing it when it will be obvious. If you are in face to face communication at the time it **will** be obvious. One personal story before i end this long one… I used to work for **LENS_CRAFTERS_**. One day a woman came into the store with literally the largest breasts I have ever seen. It was impossible to look at her at any angle that included her chest in any peripheral arc of vision and not notice them. I helped this lady. I made an actual effort not to look at her breasts the entire time she was in the store. The longer I kept eye contact with her the more appreciation I could palpably feel. This was an extreme situation, as she had almost certainly had (overdone) augmentation surgery at some point, but it really made me aware of what large breasted woman must go through. ---
**Author:** ![Beltane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@Beltane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beltane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709/100 "2001-08-31T01:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > not a woman in the world knows what it means to work, and work hard, for her dollar – no, wait, for her 70 cents on the dollar [nitpick] Sort of off topic, I guess, but is wage disparity really still that high in the workplace in general? Do you have a cite? I am genuinely curious. [/nitpick] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-subtle-glances-at-breastas-be-considered-a-compliment/78709.md?page=6)