# Can suicides go to Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2001, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379 "2001-01-04T08:59:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/41 "2001-01-06T20:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The bible says “works” is the performing of miracles. I dont’ think one can perform a bad miracle – but if you believe in witchcraft I may just have misunderstood you. Then again, all who can perform works, or miracles will not be saved. > [@](#): > > Matthew 7:22 > Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? > > Matthew 7:23 > And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Casting out demons is a miracle, is it not? Evidently, there is such a thing as a “bad miracle.” ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/42 "2001-01-08T18:10:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > > Either you think obeying the Gospel is required of those who believe, or you do not. > > You must, but because it is right, not because it is required of salvation Why must you, if it is not required? 😃 I still equate “believing in Jesus” with obeying his teachings. Obeying his teachings is a requirement of loving Jesus, and though some ( **Opus** 😉 ) might argue you can believe in Jesus without loving him, I just find such a position lacks the basics of sane reasoning. > [@](#): > > Works is anything from miricles, to helping someone in need. not just miricales. Do you have a cite on this? I’m not exactly a Bible scholar. I know Paul lumps circumcision in there with the other works he lists – but Paul and Jesus both seem to use the term to basically mean miracles. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Going forward? There is no reason it should not be possible. > > theoretically possible, but only one man has done it, and that is Jesus. it is something to strive towards. I beg to differ with your reasoning here. You could stop living a sinful life and be hit by a bus crossing the next street corner (God forbid!). You would have lived the rest of your life without sin in such a circumstance. That’s what I mean by “going forward.” Do you understand? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Unless you think Pauls meant Jews have to keep the gospel but gentiles do not? > > This has nothing to do with Jews or Gentiles. It applys to everyone. what part of this is confusing you? OK, well – Paul is confusing in Romans, but it is much clearer in Acts 15: > [@](#): > > 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel > and believe. > 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. > 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. > 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? > 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” So you are right – but to be saved, even here requires faith and the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus said no one can have the Holy Spirit unless you keep his teachings. > [@](#): > > Repenting of your sins is part believing in Jesus. Agreed. But it is this narrow gate that allows you to enter the kingdom of heaven. > [@](#): > > One is doomed to fail, but try out of love of Jesus. Thats kind of the whole point. Again, I don’t see why anyone is doomed to fail. If everyone is doomed to fail, then the kingdom will never be fully realized. If you believe you are doomed to fail, why try? > [@](#): > > As a Christian you are not following the word of God toward any reward, but trying to live as good a life as you can because thats what Jesus wants of us. There is none good but God. > [@](#): > > One can be free of sin for some time. Just not all of it. Well, I see a definite lack of people who claim to believe in God actually trying. I don’t mean you – I don’t know you from Adam. But I think many people would be much better off “doing” rather than “trying and failing” all the time. They seem unwilling to do what is required of them to enter into life. Which makes little sense for people who claim to be trying. But God seeing all. > [@](#): > > If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to donate money to the poor, are you doing a good deed by doing so? There is none good but God. What of someone who had already given all their money to the poor? There would be nothing for them to do here except to die. > [@](#): > > After all, you have free will to choose to donate money or to get your head blown off? You are not choosing to do right if you are doing it to avoid eternal damnation. Are you saying it is wrong to fear God and respect God’s will? I don’t find such a motivation lacking as long as right is done. > [@](#): > > He told us that all we have to do is believe and be saved. He asked us to follow Christ’s teaching. But to believe is to follow Jesus’s teachings. You can’t be saved if you do not have the Holy Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/43 "2001-01-08T18:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > Are you saying that there is not a single individual who has clothed the naked, fed the hungry, and given money to the poor, but is not an avowed Christian? Not one? Do some people love Jesus even if they’ve never heard of him? **Opus** – If some guy I’ve never met named Larry has a teaching that requires me to walk down a path in Pease Park, and I walk down that path, haven’t I kept Larry’s teachings? But now that I think of it – how are you supposed to visit everyone who is in prison anyway? I mean there are over a million in the U.S. alone. Some of you people better get cracking. > [@](#): > > I posted this only to point out the fact that Christians can’t agree on one of the most important issues in their entire religion. I don’t know any Christians who disagree with me. If, as the scriptures say, a Christian can perform miracles because they have the Holy Spirit because they keep Jesus’s commandments, and there are some number of people who wish to claim this mantle for themselves without gaining this Spirit or entering the kingdom (although, yes **Lissa** – I agree some people may be able to do some form of miracles through another spirit) of course they are going to redefine everything Jesus taught. I can say I am a Republican and then say, of course, Republicans are pro-choice, pro-welfare, and in favor of socialized medicine like me. That doesn’t make that true, nor does it mean Republicans “can’t agree on one of the important issues in their” party, right? Not a perfect analogy, but surely you see the truth of the matter. > [@](#): > > Your attempt to reconcile all the problems is weak indeed. Your attempt to find holes was equally weak. > [@](#): > > May I ask you bluntly whether baptism is required for salvation or not? True enough: if you truly pledge in your heart to repent, you can be saved, but if you do not go on to the baptism by the Holy Spirit, you will perish in the midst of your works. As Peter says: > [@](#): > > 1 Peter 3:21 > Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience It has nothing to do with water per se. Nor is it a flood of dissipation which saves you without your repenting. As Peter continues: > [@](#): > > 2 As a result, [the baptised] does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. > … > 4 [Un-believers] think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. > 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. > … > 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. > 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? > 18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” > [@](#): > > I’m sure you can explain away all of these verses It is dangerous for people to fool themselves into thinking because they had some water poured upon their head, they can be saved without the Holy Spirit, but I am willing to allow that God’s mercy extends to those who are truly in the process of repenting. Sadly, many people do seem to get sidetracked in this process and never escape the ways of the world. This is the devil’s fault. > [@](#): > > I think that Christianity is weakly supported, and I’m surprised that it caught on! Don’t knock it until you have tried it. > [@](#): > > You’ll find that universalism has tons of Biblical support, just like annihilationism, and eternal torment-ism. Oh, I’m aware of that. I just find their explanations tortured, no pun intended. 😉 > [@](#): > > If the Bible is so clear about who is saved and how, then why are there literally thousands of different Christian denominations? I know of only one family of Jesus. Those who hear his teachings and keep them. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/44 "2001-01-08T19:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > > > Either you think obeying the Gospel is required of those who believe, or you do not. > > > > You must, but because it is right, not because it is required of salvation > > Why must you, if it is not required? 😃 I still equate “believing in Jesus” with obeying his teachings. Obeying his teachings is a requirement of loving Jesus, and though some ( **Opus** 😉 ) might argue you can believe in Jesus without loving him, I just find such a position lacks the basics of sane reasoning. > > Obeying his tachings is a result of loving Jesus, not a requirement. You must because it is the right thing to do. > > > [@](#): > > > > Works is anything from miricles, to helping someone in need. not just miricales. > > Do you have a cite on this? I’m not exactly a Bible scholar. I know Paul lumps circumcision in there with the other works he lists – but Paul and Jesus both seem to use the term to basically mean miracles. > > Your the first I’ve ever heard say this, Have you a cite as well? > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Going forward? There is no reason it should not be possible. > > > > theoretically possible, but only one man has done it, and that is Jesus. it is something to strive towards. > > I beg to differ with your reasoning here. You could stop living a sinful life and be hit by a bus crossing the next street corner (God forbid!). You would have lived the rest of your life without sin in such a circumstance. That’s what I mean by “going forward.” Do you understand? > > I understand, but that is kind of unusual circumstance. > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Unless you think Pauls meant Jews have to keep the gospel but gentiles do not? > > > > This has nothing to do with Jews or Gentiles. It applys to everyone. what part of this is confusing you? > > OK, well – Paul is confusing in Romans, but it is much clearer in Acts 15: > > > [@](#): > > > > 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel > > and believe. > > 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. > > 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. > > 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? > > 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” > > So you are right – but to be saved, even here requires faith and the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus said no one can have the Holy Spirit unless you keep his teachings. > > > [@](#): > > > > Repenting of your sins is part believing in Jesus. > > Agreed. But it is this narrow gate that allows you to enter the kingdom of heaven. > > > [@](#): > > > > One is doomed to fail, but try out of love of Jesus. Thats kind of the whole point. > > Again, I don’t see why anyone is doomed to fail. If everyone is doomed to fail, then the kingdom will never be fully realized. If you believe you are doomed to fail, why try? > > Doomed to fail may be a poor choice of words, but what I mean hear is that as mortal humans we will falter ocasionally. through Christ however, we are forgiven. > > > [@](#): > > > > As a Christian you are not following the word of God toward any reward, but trying to live as good a life as you can because thats what Jesus wants of us. > > There is none good but God. > > ? > > > [@](#): > > > > One can be free of sin for some time. Just not all of it. > > Well, I see a definite lack of people who claim to believe in God actually trying. I don’t mean you – I don’t know you from Adam. But I think many people would be much better off “doing” rather than “trying and failing” all the time. They seem unwilling to do what is required of them to enter into life. Which makes little sense for people who claim to be trying. But God seeing all. > > > [@](#): > > > > If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to donate money to the poor, are you doing a good deed by doing so? > > There is none good but God. What of someone who had already given all their money to the poor? There would be nothing for them to do here except to die. > > > [@](#): > > > > After all, you have free will to choose to donate money or to get your head blown off? You are not choosing to do right if you are doing it to avoid eternal damnation. > > Are you saying it is wrong to fear God and respect God’s will? I don’t find such a motivation lacking as long as right is done. > > I am saying that motivation is everything. That doing a good deed because you have to, does not make you a good person. > > > [@](#): > > > > He told us that all we have to do is believe and be saved. He asked us to follow Christ’s teaching. > > But to believe is to follow Jesus’s teachings. You can’t be saved if you do not have the Holy Spirit. \*\* If you believe you will follow Jesus’s teachings, you don’t believe because you follow his teachings. Mostly where we disagree is cause and effect. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/45 "2001-01-08T20:42:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > Obeying his tachings is a result of loving Jesus, not a requirement. This is what Jesus says in John 14: “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. … Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.” > [@](#): > > Have you a cite [on works being miracles]? Sure: > [@](#): > > Matthew 5:16 Matthew 5 Matthew 5:15-17 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. > > Matthew 7:22 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:21-23 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works > in your name?’ > > Matthew 11:20 Matthew 11 Matthew 11:19-21 Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. > > Matthew 11:21 Matthew 11 Matthew 11:20-22 "Woe to you, Chora’zin! woe to you, Beth-sa’ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have > repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. > > Matthew 11:23 Matthew 11 Matthew 11:22-24 And you, Caper’na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been > done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. > > Matthew 13:54 Matthew 13 Matthew 13:53-55 and coming to his own country he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this > wisdom and these mighty works? > > Matthew 13:58 Matthew 13 Matthew 13:57-59 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief. > > Mark 6:2 Mark 6 Mark 6:1-3 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom > given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! > > Luke 10:13 Luke 10 Luke 10:12-14 "Woe to you, Chora’zin! woe to you, Beth-sa’ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long > ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. > > Luke 19:37 Luke 19 Luke 19:36-38 As he was now drawing near, at the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice > for all the mighty works that they had seen, > > John 5:20 John 5 John 5:19-21 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. > > John 5:36 John 5 John 5:35-37 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, > bear me witness that the Father has sent me. > > John 6:28 John 6 John 6:27-29 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” > > John 7:3 John 7 John 7:2-4 So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing. > > John 9:3 John 9 John 9:2-4 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. > > John 9:4 John 9 John 9:3-5 We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. > > John 10:25 John 10 John 10:24-26 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me; > > John 10:32 John 10 John 10:31-33 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?” > > John 10:37 John 10 John 10:36-38 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; > > John 10:38 John 10 John 10:37-39 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." > > John 14:10 John 14 John 14:9-11 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells > in me does his works. > > John 14:11 John 14 John 14:10-12 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. > > John 14:12 John 14 John 14:11-13 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. > > John 15:24 John 15 John 15:23-25 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. > > Acts 2:11 Acts 2 Acts 2:10-12 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." > > Acts 2:22 Acts 2 Acts 2:21-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in > your midst, as you yourselves know– I think that is most of it. But Paul isn’t entirely clear in Romans (chapter 2 for example) the more I look at it: > [@](#): > > 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. > 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: > 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; > 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. > 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, > 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. > 11 For God shows no partiality. Clearly he means one kind of “works” here but then he goes on briefly in chapter 3 to say “works” aren’t important, at least as far as circumcision is concerned. It is confusing!! > [@](#): > > Doomed to fail may be a poor choice of words, but what I mean hear is that as mortal humans we will falter ocasionally. through Christ however, we are forgiven. It should be fairly difficult to trip up those who walk in the light. But I’ll admit – there are arguments on both sides. Do the apostles ever sin after they recieved the spirit? (I don’t know – I’m asking). > [@](#): > > ? Just saying is all. Jesus’s yoke is an easy yoke. It is not a struggle to do good unless you try to do it on your own – but you should instead let the Spirit work though you. If you give yourself over to God therein lies success. > [@](#): > > I am saying that motivation is everything. That doing a good deed because you have to, does not make you a good person. But there is none good but God. I fail to understand your position. You do not have to do anything because someone puts a gun to your head – you are still free to do whatever you want. This should be especially true for those who are alive in Christ and no longer fear the power of Death. > [@](#): > > Mostly where we disagree is cause and effect. I should hope so. Jesus gave the world the new law of love and the commandments to explain this law. By that covenant you can enter into life if you so choose. God be with you. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/46 "2001-01-09T03:44:48Z")
jmullaney wrote: > [@](#): > > Opus – If some guy I’ve never met named Larry has a teaching that requires me to walk down a path in Pease Park, and I walk down that path, haven’t I kept Larry’s teachings? If Larry also requires you to believe that he is the son of God, no. > [@](#): > > I don’t know any Christians who disagree with me. I really can’t even think of a rebuttal to this. > [@](#): > > . I can say I am a Republican and then say, of course, Republicans are pro-choice, pro-welfare, and in favor of socialized medicine like me. That doesn’t make that true, nor does it mean Republicans “can’t agree on one of the important issues in their” party, right? Not a perfect analogy, but surely you see the truth of the matter. Huh? There’s a key difference here. The Republican party has a clear statement on certain issues like abortion, welfare, gun control, etc. One can be a Republican but still disagree with the official party plank on certain issues. Furthermore, no one claims that the Republican party platform is inspired by God. A better analogy would be if the Republican party published an official declaration of their beliefs. Upon reading it, half of Republicans thought that it said that the party was pro choice, and half thought that it said that the party was pro-life. This would be pretty strong evidence that the Republicans did a piss-poor job of crafting their statement, and would make any claim that it was divinely inspired laughable. > [@](#): > > Don’t knock it [Christianity] until you have tried it. Oh goodie. Haven’t seen this brilliancy before. I assume you’ve tried Islam, Buddhism, cocaine, eating human feces, S&M, etc.? One needs _experience_ with something in order to comment on it, but one needn’t have tried it oneself. > [@](#): > > Oh, I’m aware of that. I just find their explanations tortured, no pun intended. I’m sure they feel the same about your explanations. > [@](#): > > I know of only one family of Jesus. Those who hear his teachings and keep them. Nice non-sequitur there. Please answer the question: If the Bible is divinely inspired, why can’t honest, rational, well-intentioned people decide what it teaches about critical issues such as salvation, the death penalty, abortion, homosexuality, slavery, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/47 "2001-01-09T04:38:13Z")
On “works” _equating_ to “miracles”: Through that whole list, whenever the passage is referring to anything that we would name a miracle, the word _works_ is modified by the adjective _mighty_. Where the word _works_ is not modified by _mighty_, it is simply not clear that every “work” was a miracle. (You may argue so if you wish, but that is not what is in the text.) In fact, the words for the first few passages are: Mt 5:16 _kala 'erga_ – good works Mt 7:22 through Mark and Luke (and Acts) _dynameis_ – works of power John (throughout) and Paul to the Romans _'erga_ – works, efforts, labor The word _'erga_ (whence our ergonomics, etc.) was simply the common word in Greek for effort that produced _any_ result–i.e., it corresponds to “work” in English. There is no sense of the miraculous attached to it (unless someone wants to claim that it had a _special_ meaning in John that it had no where else in literature). Where there were specific miraculous events, the Gospel authors clearly noted them, using the word _dynamis_ (whence our dynamic, etc.) Note that Matthew uses both words, indicating that he certainly knew that they had different meanings. Note, also that most of the synoptic passages have been shared, so that there are fewer references than there appear at first glance. Grabbing a word out of an English translation (especially when one carefully ignores the adjectives applied to that word in the translation) is not a good way to study Scripture or to try to discern what was really meant. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/48 "2001-01-09T04:50:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*On “works” _equating_ to “miracles”: Through that whole list, whenever the passage is referring to anything that we would name a miracle, the word _works_ is modified by the adjective _mighty_. Where the word _works_ is not modified by _mighty_, it is simply not clear that every “work” was a miracle. (You may argue so if you wish, but that is not what is in the text.) > > In fact, the words for the first few passages are: > > Mt 5:16 > _kala 'erga_ – good works > Mt 7:22 through Mark and Luke (and Acts) > _dynameis_ – works of power > > John (throughout) and Paul to the Romans > _'erga_ – works, efforts, labor > > The word _'erga_ (whence our ergonomics, etc.) was simply the common word in Greek for effort that produced _any_ result–i.e., it corresponds to “work” in English. There is no sense of the miraculous attached to it (unless someone wants to claim that it had a _special_ meaning in John that it had no where else in literature). Where there were specific miraculous events, the Gospel authors clearly noted them, using the word _dynamis_ (whence our dynamic, etc.) Note that Matthew uses both words, indicating that he certainly knew that they had different meanings. Note, also that most of the synoptic passages have been shared, so that there are fewer references than there appear at first glance. > > Grabbing a word out of an English translation (especially when one carefully ignores the adjectives applied to that word in the translation) is not a good way to study Scripture or to try to discern what was really meant. \*\* Thanks Tom. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/49 "2001-01-09T05:23:42Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] **bdgr** , please don’t quote a post in full (including nested quotes by other posters) just to post a brief comment; quote only the amount of text that is necessary to make it clear what you are responding to. If you don’t know how to edit down the text you are quoting, read about Vb coding [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/index.php?action=bbcode). Thanks. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/50 "2001-01-09T08:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > If you reject Jesus, you go to hell. > > You can’t believe in Jesus and not keep his commandments. You can’t believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and do evil works. A house divided against itself can not stand. \*\* Well, shit. I’m actually in agreement with **jmullaney**. I’m very, very frightened. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/51 "2001-01-09T10:42:24Z")
Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/52 "2001-01-09T12:54:45Z")
Goats _are_ hell, posters. Anyone who says differently is selling one. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/53 "2001-01-09T14:30:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > If Larry also requires you to believe that he is the son of God, no. Aw, now you are just giving me heck. “Son of God” for all extents and purposes means “his teachings are true from the Father” as is clearly explained in the text. > [@](#): > > The Republican party has a clear statement on certain issues As, I must insist, does the Bible. It is a little dusty after 2000 years of language drift and translation. There is nothing in Jesus’s main teachings unclear. You can poke holes by feigning ignorance of the totality of the text, which must be examined due in no part to language drift. If you wish to believe, in error, that requirements for salvation translated in to English as “believe in” and “faith” are purely mental exercises, even though you admit you do not know, just so you can claim that this fails to make sense of the activity based requirements elsewhere, thus “make any claim that it was divinely inspired laughable,” who am I to complain? But it is clear what you are doing. > [@](#): > > One needs _experience_ with something in order to comment on it, but one needn’t have tried it oneself. You are the one who claimed Christianity is weakly supported. You might know the scriptures, but you do not know the power of God. > [@](#): > > If the Bible is divinely inspired, why can’t honest, rational, well-intentioned people decide what it teaches about critical issues such as salvation, the death penalty, abortion, homosexuality, slavery, etc.? 😕 “[H]onest, rational, well-intentioned _people_”?? I beseech you: I have surely never met such people – **can you rephrase the question without using an oxymoron?** ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/54 "2001-01-09T14:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > Grabbing a word out of an English translation (especially when one carefully ignores the adjectives applied to that word in the translation) is not a good way to study Scripture or to try to discern what was really meant. Thanks Tom. But John and Paul are using the same word, right? When Jesus says “Any one who has faith in me shall do works” that is the same word Paul uses, right? ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/55 "2001-01-09T15:15:54Z")
there is no heaven. suicides probably get reincarnated into a life worse than the one they had. God has a really obnoxious sense of humor. if you read near the beginning of psalms, it talks about God laughing about the cruelty of the kings of the earth. guess she must know something they don’t. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/56 "2001-01-09T20:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > But John and Paul are using the same word, right? When Jesus says “Any one who has faith in me shall do works” that is the same word Paul uses, right? John and Paul both use the same word, _'erga_, throughout. (I am not looking up a Greek concordance to be sure that neither _ever_ uses _dynamis_.) However, to put the meaning “miracle” on that word is imposing a desired result on the word without justification. There is/was a perfectly good word in use (_dynamis_) that we could translate as “miracle.” When John quotes Jesus speaking of his own “works,” most of the contexts are more easily understood as “doing good,” not as “performing miracles.” On the one or two passages that one _could_ (not should) interpret as Jesus referring to miracles, the passage can _still_ be read that Jesus is referring to simply being very ethical or compassionate or doing a good job of spreading God’s message. If you choose to read those passages as referring to “miracles,” you really have to be prepared to explain why John did not use _dynamis_ or find other passages in ancient texts where _'erga_ is understood to mean miracles. This is even more true in Paul (written 40 - 60 years earlier). Paul is generally referring to efforts of Christians, not efforts of Jesus. Why would we interpret Paul to be using the word _'erga_ in a context that no one else uses it, a half century before John allegedly uses it in the same non-standard way–when no one else picked up that usage, despite the primacy (in both time and authority) of Paul’s writings? If it gives you a warm feeling to equate “works” in Paul and John to miracles, that is fine. Trying to wrest the word out of context and using it as a debating point will not, I’m afraid, go very far. Even the English translators have avoided trying to put the “miracle” meaning on _'erga_. Whenever _dynamis_ is used, the translations always add the modifiers “mighty” or “of power” to the word “works.” They never do the same for _'erga_. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/57 "2001-01-09T20:54:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > However, to put the meaning “miracle” on that word is imposing a desired result on the word without justification. There is/was a perfectly good word in use (_dynamis_) that we could translate as “miracle.” OK, Tom – who am I to question Jesus’s choice of words? > [@](#): > > When John quotes Jesus speaking of his own “works,” most of the contexts are more easily understood as “doing good,” not as “performing miracles.” … If you choose to read those passages as referring to “miracles,” you really have to be prepared to explain why John did not use _dynamis_ or find other passages in ancient texts where _'erga_ is understood to mean miracles. Places in John where the context implies “works” meaning something other than miracles seem to be the exception rather than the rule, although I suppose a broad interpretation is possible. What about John 14:11 (and 10:32, and others)? NIV translates as “miracles” what the RSV translates as “works”? (I guess I should ask instead if you know a link to once of these concordances on-line). Annoyingly, if the word “works” appears at all in John 14:12, the NIV leaves it out completely versus the RSV. > [@](#): > > This is even more true in Paul (written 40 - 60 years earlier). Ahem. Supposedly written 40-60 years earlier. Do you think Jesus said the things he said in John as presented or not (admittedly not in Greek)? And Paul may have been familiar with Jesus’s teachings (though his native language wasn’t Greek either I presume)? Otherwise you are right – these are two completely seperate documents and there is no reason to assume they might be using certain words in a common fashion other than possible Arameic/Greek slang. > [@](#): > > Paul is generally referring to efforts of Christians, not efforts of Jesus. So? > [@](#): > > Trying to wrest the word out of context and using it as a debating point will not, I’m afraid, go very far. Well, it is the same word in John and Paul. I think Jesus’s portrayed usage is fairly clear. Without any real context to know what Paul means when he uses the word, in apparenlty opposite meanings in subsequent chapters of Romans (you will “judged by your works” in chapter 2, and then in chapter 3 he says “works” count for nothing and faith is important). So either Paul is changing his meaning, or he fell off a horse a little too hard, or, possibly, some third party edited his letter after he wrote it (gee, perhaps even the same time John was supposedly being written as you say)… and in any case, I’ll admit I don’t know exactly what Paul means in Romans 3. > [@](#): > > Even the English translators have avoided trying to put the “miracle” meaning on _'erga_. 😕 Just let me know if those NIV guys are commie infiltrators, OK? I don’t know if any churched actually use the NIV, but it is first on the Bible Gateways list! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/58 "2001-01-09T21:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I suppose a broad interpretation is possible. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/59 "2001-01-09T22:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > > > [@](#): > > > > I suppose a broad interpretation is possible. > > Yup. Great – I like it – and I don’t think this hurts my explanation to **Opus**. Still, there are about a half billion Protestants who take Romans three and throw out Romans 2 and all of what Jesus said re works in John and also what James wrote, regardless. And they still bug me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379/60 "2001-01-09T23:08:05Z")
As long as you are simply batting ideas back and forth, with each person explaining why s/he favors any given interpretation, that’s fine. My point was that you can not claim authority for your position to “win” the debate, because your interpretation is not supported by many (if any) sources. The NIV may translate some of the passages as “miracles” (although I would be really curious if they provide an explanation why they did so), but that is a single translation that is not supported by many (if any) other versions. (BTW, if they did not translate Paul’s use as “miracles,” you don’t even have their support for your interpretation.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-suicides-go-to-heaven/48379.md?page=4)