# Can the apparent "lack of talent" in modern pop really be attributed to, well, a lack of talent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 20, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176 "2012-01-20T22:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/41 "2012-01-22T01:14:59Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > It makes sense that rap is right next to pop in being made for people who are ‘satisfied with less’. But like it or not rap (same as pop) isn’t, for lack of a better word, as substantial as real music like rock & roll or R&B or Jazz is. This is utterly ridiculous. What about people like me who love music by Beethoven, Schubert, Duke Ellington, Oscar Peterson, Charles Mingus, The Beatles, Led Zepplin, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Radiohead as well as Outkast, Kanye, Jay-Z, The Roots, The Beastie Boys and Madlib? Some of the best rap I’ve heard can rival jazz for polyrhythmic complexity and the phrasing of the best rappers could put a lot of pop singers to shame. Just because the emphasis is on rhythm rather than melody doesn’t disqualify it from music. I’m not even a huge rap fan but I respect talent when I hear it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/42 "2012-01-22T01:48:09Z")
The Decemberists are popular? Very popular? As in “a top act of 2011” popular? But I **like** them! My faith in the (bad) taste of the market is shaken. My future foray (starting Monday!) into selling Pop Culture to the Masses may be a bad career move. ☹ Pop Culture, 45 years has been a good run, but when I stopped making accurate predictions I guess it was over between us. But I still have my kids to help me pretend I know what’s uncool. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/43 "2012-01-22T03:33:22Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Jesus fucking Christ. You don’t hear so much about “classic” (i.e., if we’re to take the rock definition, 60s and 70s) rap because the genre hasn’t been around that long. People certainly do continue to listen to older rap/hip-hop, though; it’s not just here and gone, as you say. Actually, there is “classic” rap/hip-hop. It’s called “Old School” (or “Old Skool”). ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/44 "2012-01-22T03:53:22Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Actually, there is “classic” rap/hip-hop. It’s called “Old School” (or “Old Skool”). yeah, I mean, rap is 33 years old so it’s been around long enough. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZecLbHGdUfg/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGGUgVihBMA8=&rs=AOn4CLCo3TVnIjcL8mFuK4ziUkHrRCGZ7Q "Sugarhill Gang - Rapper's Delight (High Quality)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZecLbHGdUfg) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/45 "2012-01-22T05:09:44Z")
One dog has a Run DMC T shirt, so even I can kick it Old Skool. Then there is [this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4o8TeqKhgY) Rhythm is what makes music. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/46 "2012-01-22T05:39:40Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Actually, there is “classic” rap/hip-hop. It’s called “Old School” (or “Old Skool”). Good point! ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/47 "2012-01-22T06:02:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > One dog has a Run DMC T shirt, so even I can kick it Old Skool. > > Then there is [this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4o8TeqKhgY) Rhythm is what makes music. \*hijack \*It always creeps me out when people (well, white people) point to very early rap and say “THIS is what rap is!” because while I appreciate the old school stuff as ground-breaking and not without a message, I find it to be slightly infantile, clean and simple. Just like rock was in the 50s. I get what “The Message” is but it’s about as hard-core as “Day Tripper,” sound-wise. “Rapper’s Delight” is very non-offensive and just about being an MC and getting your rhymes out. It is, to me, nothing like “Thug 4 Life” or “Forget About Dre” or “Grind Date” or anything newer than the 80s. It basically makes me feel like people are saying “Don’t get me wrong, I like rap! I thought it was best when black people sang rhymey songs about being a ‘bad’ MC and staying away from drugs. Street life as a breakdancer! Not when black people got angry and wrote poems over beats. That is so not good.” A stilted appreciation of old rap and only old rap just creeps me out, it does. _/hijack_ ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/48 "2012-01-22T06:55:44Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > This is utterly ridiculous. > > What about people like me who love music by Beethoven, Schubert, Duke Ellington, Oscar Peterson, Charles Mingus, The Beatles, Led Zepplin, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Radiohead as well as Outkast, Kanye, Jay-Z, The Roots, The Beastie Boys and Madlib? > > Some of the best rap I’ve heard can rival jazz for polyrhythmic complexity and the phrasing of the best rappers could put a lot of pop singers to shame. Just because the emphasis is on rhythm rather than melody doesn’t disqualify it from music. > > I’m not even a huge rap fan but I respect talent when I hear it. Then, I would suggest your and many others’ ear and tone has been influenced and brought down to plebian and frankly bad taste… the talentless saturation of modern pop music that the Op suggests. There hasn’t been a musical genius in at least 15 years. Shit… Jay-z is an Amateur compared to Whodini. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/49 "2012-01-22T07:05:59Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > \*hijack > \*It always creeps me out when people (well, white people) point to very early rap and say “THIS is what rap is!” because while I appreciate the old school stuff as ground-breaking and not without a message, I find it to be slightly infantile, clean and simple. Just like rock was in the 50s. I get what “The Message” is but it’s about as hard-core as “Day Tripper,” sound-wise. “Rapper’s Delight” is very non-offensive and just about being an MC and getting your rhymes out. It is, to me, nothing like “Thug 4 Life” or “Forget About Dre” or “Grind Date” or anything newer than the 80s. > > It basically makes me feel like people are saying “Don’t get me wrong, I like rap! I thought it was best when black people sang rhymey songs about being a ‘bad’ MC and staying away from drugs. Street life as a breakdancer! Not when black people got angry and wrote poems over beats. That is so not good.” > > A stilted appreciation of old rap and only old rap just creeps me out, it does. > _/hijack_ A lot of rap embraces a adolescent male fantasy in lyrics and image which gets worse over time and is what a lot of people hate, most of the people who like classic rap like stuff like 2pac and Biggie so its unfair to imply they only like totally inoffensive stuff. Personally I don’t like really aggressive or angry music like Rage Against The Machine or NWA(I do like the debut). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/50 "2012-01-22T08:06:33Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > A stilted appreciation of old rap and only old rap just creeps me out, it does. Um, I’m old. I also don’t like most of recent rock, or would if I heard some. It’s how us old people work. 🙂 I was at a guy’s apartment and, at a glance of his record collection (a telling phrase), said, “You got married in 1980,” because he hadn’t bought one since then. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/51 "2012-01-22T09:17:16Z")
I don’t get it. What’s so bloody awful about just being a singer? ---
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/52 "2012-01-22T10:39:45Z")
I recall reading that Diana Ross did so many takes of “Touch Me In The Morning,” that there aren’t even 10 seconds in that song that come from one take. It’s all spliced together. The reason was they were trying to get Ross an Oscar and wanted a #1 song to back it up. They got the #1 song. But they’ve always had pop idols, like Bobby Sherman. Cute but could barely sing. And Shelley Fabares even admitted she couldn’t sing at all, but they put so many backing singers and recorded her so carefully she was able to go to #1 with Johnny Angel. Part of the problem as I see it, is the fact now with digital music, you not only are competing with current stuff but very old stuff too. Right now I could say Bobby Sherman was marginal and you can instantly go to YouTube and confirm or refute me. 15 years ago you couldn’t do this. New artists are not only competing with new artists they are competing with old ones. Another part is new singers generally don’t like to use songwriters, but they try to write their own stuff and it’s usually not any where near as good as a “real” songwriter could write. Lastly the rewards are so great since the 90s especially but even before then, it started in the 50s. I recall Phyllis McGuire saying she was glad her career (The McGuire Sisters) didn’t take off right away as she was in the first group of singers to make a lot of money off songs and performing. She said, before her time, singers didn’t make much. And while they weren’t starving, it was really a job, much like any others. So the really talented ones are in no rush to make more albums. They can sit back and live on the royalties. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/53 "2012-01-22T11:23:23Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > Lastly the rewards are so great since the 90s especially but even before then, it started in the 50s. I recall Phyllis McGuire saying she was glad her career (The McGuire Sisters) didn’t take off right away as she was in the first group of singers to make a lot of money off songs and performing. She said, before her time, singers didn’t make much. My Uncle, who was an ironworker/contractor, built a reduced scale eiffel tower in the early eighties in her Vegas House/atrium. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/54 "2012-01-22T11:35:59Z")
He also gave me a vintage pinball machine, he collected pinball machines. It’s also really deja vu and weird when I watch [American Restoration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Restoration) on the History Channel, because their “Outskirts of Vegas, Industrial Row, Shop” is almost exactly like his Iron Working Shop. Can’t remember where it was when I was 10, but I bet the same builders built their shop/ ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/55 "2012-01-22T11:41:24Z")
… but that uncle was, I think, my aunt’s 6th husband. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/56 "2012-01-22T15:19:05Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > \*hijack > \*It always creeps me out when people (well, white people) point to very early rap and say “THIS is what rap is!” because while I appreciate the old school stuff as ground-breaking and not without a message, I find it to be slightly infantile, clean and simple. Just like rock was in the 50s. I get what “The Message” is but it’s about as hard-core as “Day Tripper,” sound-wise. “Rapper’s Delight” is very non-offensive and just about being an MC and getting your rhymes out. It is, to me, nothing like “Thug 4 Life” or “Forget About Dre” or “Grind Date” or anything newer than the 80s. > > It basically makes me feel like people are saying “Don’t get me wrong, I like rap! I thought it was best when black people sang rhymey songs about being a ‘bad’ MC and staying away from drugs. Street life as a breakdancer! Not when black people got angry and wrote poems over beats. That is so not good.” > > A stilted appreciation of old rap and only old rap just creeps me out, it does. > _/hijack_ I’m not white. 🙂 But I like old skool not because I think the lyrics are great (although “The Message” is not at all bubblegum), but because of nostalgia. I was literally a toddler when rap came on the scene, but I still remember my siblings and I dancing to “Rapper’s Delight”. “Christmas in Hollis” reminds me of Mommy cooking up a batch of collard greens and everything being alright. “I Need Love” reminds me of the fifth grade, when all the girls seemed to know the song by heart. Which was fine, since the lyrics were innocent. “Parents Just Don’t Understand” reminds me of that time of me in life when I was starting to understand that, yeah, parents just don’t understand. I think the same is true for most old-skool fans. I definitely do not think that period was the height of rap, but I do have nostalgia for it just like my father has for the Beatles or Motown. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/57 "2012-01-22T17:20:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think the same is true for most old-skool fans. I definitely do not think that period was the height of rap, but I do have nostalgia for it just like my father has for the Beatles or Motown. I’m white and I have a lot of African American neighbors. I was listening to my iPod as I walked my dog when one of the neighbor’s kids, who was around twelve I think, asked me if I had any rap music on it. Of course I did! When I told him I had Slick Rick, The Sugarhill Gang and Ice Cube he just gave me a blank stare. He had not heard of any of them and I felt very very old. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/58 "2012-01-22T20:42:02Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > But it isn’t music. The non-vocal part of the track is 100% computer generated. There aren’t even faceless ‘studio’ musicians playing on it, just an engineer who pushes some buttons. And more importantly, this is also true when rap artists perform quote unquote, “live”. The non-vocal tracks might as well just be prerecorded playback (usually they are!). And even the vocal track is not singing. It’s not really even sing-talking. It’s a sort of a rhythmic poetic performance art. So that’s, one, no musical instruments and, two, no singing which, three, equals not music. And here all this time I thought that Pink Floyd’s “Another Brick In The Wall” was classic rock. Turns out it’s rap. Learn something new everyday. I guess the same goes for “A Day In The Life” as well. That was all sing-talking over a pre-recorded track. Most classic rock albums from 1966 onward cannot be played live without a pre-recorded tape loop because the sounds cannot be reliably produced by a human at the pace that the song requires. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/59 "2012-01-22T23:10:12Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Actually, there is “classic” rap/hip-hop. It’s called “Old School” (or “Old Skool”). There are actually many genres of rap. Old School is technically the pro-rap of the late 70s and early 80s. Sugar Hill Gang. Fat Boys. etc. The Golden Age of rap is generally defined as the period in the 80s and 90s when rap and hip hop hit the mainstream. L L Cool J, Public Enemy, Run DMC, Erik B & Rakim, Tribe Called Quest, so on and so forth. Gangster Rap was the next wave. NWA, Ice Cube, Dre, Tupac on the West Coast and Wu-Tang Clan, Notorious BIG and others on the East Coast. After the death of Biggy and Pac, rap became more commercialized. With acts like P Diddy (or whatever he called himself), Mase, Nas, Busta Rhyme and others putting out more radio friendly beats. Nowadays, much of rap and hip hop has become as slick and overproduced as any other music genre. And much of it has blended with rock, dance and electronica music. ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/60 "2012-01-22T23:11:23Z")
I agree with the lack of talent, seems like the are signing anyone these days… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176.md?page=4)