# Can the apparent "lack of talent" in modern pop really be attributed to, well, a lack of talent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 20, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176 "2012-01-20T22:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/61 "2012-01-22T23:50:01Z")
Taylor Swift - can’t sing. Justin Bieber - can’t sing. Kings of Leon - can’t sing. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/62 "2012-01-23T00:18:56Z")
Oh come on. Here’s the Billboard Top 10 from the week “Smells Like Teen Spirit” came out: \* The Promise Of A New Day Paula Abdul I Adore Mi Amor Color Me Badd (Everything I Do) I Do It For You Bryan Adams Motownphilly Boyz II Men Things That Make You Go Hmmm… C+C Music Factory Good Vibrations Marky Mark Time, Love And Tenderness Michael Bolton Crazy Seal Too Many Walls Cathy Dennis 3 A.M. Eternal The KLF\* Boyz II Men? Marky Mark? C+C Music Factory? Pop has always had a ‘lack of talent’. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/63 "2012-01-23T00:31:10Z")
If you actually look at a couple of the guys from Boyz II Men up close, you’ll see that they actually buck the “lookism” cliche. In other words, it may help if folks distinguish “not talented” from “I don’t like their music.” ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/64 "2012-01-23T00:37:13Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Taylor Swift - can’t sing. > Justin Bieber - can’t sing. > Kings of Leon - can’t sing. I like Tswift, she’s dope… ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/65 "2012-01-23T00:39:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you actually look at a couple of the guys from Boyz II Men up close, you’ll see that they actually buck the “lookism” cliche. > > In other words, it may help if folks distinguish “not talented” from “I don’t like their music.” Not talented= Kesha,Cassie and anyone who doesn’t sound good accapella… ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/66 "2012-01-23T01:22:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you actually look at a couple of the guys from Boyz II Men up close, you’ll see that they actually buck the “lookism” cliche. > > In other words, it may help if folks distinguish “not talented” from “I don’t like their music.” I wasn’t a big fan of the group but even I’ll admit Boyz II Men had talent (and “Motownphilly” isn’t too bad a song). They just did too many soupy ballads for my taste. > [@](#): > > Not talented= Kesha,Cassie and anyone who doesn’t sound good accapella… I agree. Ke$sha has a hyper-annoying singy-songy voice and her songs all sound alike. Still, getting back to monstro’s quote, there is a lot YMMV involved in judging whether a singer or group has talent or now. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/67 "2012-01-23T01:56:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If you actually look at a couple of the guys from Boyz II Men up close, you’ll see that they actually buck the “lookism” cliche. And Seal is one of the few popular singers who’s actually disfigured! > [@](#): > > In other words, it may help if folks distinguish “not talented” from “I don’t like their music.” Yeah, while I either dislike or don’t even remember most of the songs on **kushiel** ’s list, a number of the artists mentioned are competent singers whose material/style I just don’t care for. But the OP’s question was about auto-tune vs. the recording/editing tricks used to make weak singers sound better in years past, and while I’d bet both Paula Abdul and Marky Mark benefited from such techniques I don’t think Michael Bolton or Boyz II Men’s recordings needed too much help. And since **kushiel** brought up “Smells Like Teen Spirit”, I’m sure even the biggest Nirvana fans would concede that Kurt Cobain wasn’t exactly Pavarotti. He had a voice and performing style that were well suited to the genre he was working in, but he wasn’t a good singer in the traditional sense. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/68 "2012-01-23T04:51:14Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I think you’re confusing the importance of looks with the importance of conventional good looks. For teenagers, looking unconventional is part of being cool. In the 50’s, it was leather jackets; today, it goes a lot farther. > > And of course it’s not either-or. Good looking singers have always had an advantage. But they have a lot bigger advantage in the video era than in the radio era. The video era? That was twenty years ago, wasn’t it? Haven’t we been in the iPod era a while now? I think the whining in this thread sounds really out of date. Yeah, somebody keeps insisting Rihanna is hot, but I’m listening to Mogwai and Foster the People. But it’s not a bad period for pop; Bruno Mars, for example, is doing some good stuff. Nu-metal has largely faded into the background. As for the trashy pop side, we’re largely back to cheesy sex kitten acts and soul singers, _like the old days._ MTV as my generation knew it is gone; iPods reward good musicianship. This is a good time for pop I think. I think Duran Duran were quite good, actually, and Hall and Oates, Air Supply, Eurythmics, and so forth. But if you want to see really bad pop, listen to some of the payola noise from the 1950’s. Unlistenable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/69 "2012-01-23T05:17:37Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > My Uncle, who was an ironworker/contractor, built a reduced scale eiffel tower in the early eighties in her Vegas House/atrium. Your uncle was a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/70 "2012-01-23T05:19:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Your uncle was a woman? This is the SDMB, uncles being women no longer surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/71 "2012-01-23T05:25:30Z")
Music that is rhythmic and not melodic tends to really suck compared to music that IS melodic. Your mileage may vary … I don’t care, it’s still sucky. Ad re: Ke$ha, time to [trot this out.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmCjJ0VBjjU) ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/72 "2012-01-23T06:26:58Z")
> [@slm2955](#): > > Not talented= Kesha,Cassie and anyone who doesn’t sound good accapella… I’m going to defend Ke-dollarsign-ha, much as it pains me. I’ve heard an old demo of hers (which I cannot find again for the life of me), no autotune, she CAN actually sing. Perhaps she can’t sing better than your average middle-chair choir kid, but she can hit notes and carry a tune. She was in marching band in high school, and she wrote songs with her mom after school every day (all this according to an [NPR article](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122610692) – she also had an IQ of over 140 and SAT scores over 1500, but intelligence is irrelevant to musical talent). Even if it may reflect even more poorly on her to some, there’s one thing you can say for her, she either writes or co-writes most of her songs, as well as writing for other pop artists (Wikipedia says Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus). I’m not going to call her an evil genius, but I can’t help but think that the over-engineered, vapidly worded, autotuned garbage she puts out is in at least some small way calculated. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/73 "2012-01-23T09:02:03Z")
Semi-obligatory: [Radio Friendly Song - YouTube](http://youtu.be/A0Gs4xGw1Eg) (link features sound -Ellen) (Jon LaJoie’s “Radio Friendly Song” for those who don’t wish to blind click) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/74 "2012-01-23T13:05:26Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > She was in marching band in high school, and she wrote songs with her mom after school every day (all this according to an [NPR article](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122610692) – she also had an IQ of over 140 and SAT scores over 1500, but intelligence is irrelevant to musical talent). Even if it may reflect even more poorly on her to some, there’s one thing you can say for her, she either writes or co-writes most of her songs, as well as writing for other pop artists (Wikipedia says Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus). I’m not going to call her an evil genius, but I can’t help but think that the over-engineered, vapidly worded, autotuned garbage she puts out is in at least some small way calculated. Exactly. I don’t much care for Kesha’s music, but she has never shied away from admitting that the person she is on stage is just a character. It’s theater and the autotune (for her) is part of that. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/75 "2012-01-23T13:17:52Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > And here all this time I thought that Pink Floyd’s “Another Brick In The Wall” was classic rock. Turns out it’s rap. Learn something new everyday. I guess the same goes for “A Day In The Life” as well. That was all sing-talking over a pre-recorded track. Most classic rock albums from 1966 onward cannot be played live without a pre-recorded tape loop because the sounds cannot be reliably produced by a human at the pace that the song requires. Oh please. Why didn’t you mention Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody?! Those are single, specific, individual songs whose music and/or heavy effects tracks can’t be performed live. Rap is an entire genre. Technically Muzak is music, but diluted down to bare essential elements. The non-vocal part of rap is the same way, mostly. Hell, I don’t like country music for much the same reason. Even though they always have real instrument performers playing, it’s all about the frontman or woman and they’re lyrics. The bands behind them are almost interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/76 "2012-01-23T13:34:47Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Who exactly are these singing stars of yore who were dog ugly but successful thanks to their great voices? Ladies and gentlemen - [Mr Conway Twitty](http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/69197646/Conway+Twitty+CTweet.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/77 "2012-01-23T17:00:45Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Technology and mass media are the culprits of today. First and foremost the performer has to be good looking. This is absolutely true for females. Except for Adele, by far the biggest selling artist of 2011. She’s not unattractive, but she doesn’t have the kind of looks you claim are necessary. > [@](#): > > As far as rap, if you enjoy it fine. But it isn’t music. The non-vocal part of the track is 100% computer generated. There aren’t even faceless ‘studio’ musicians playing on it, just an engineer who pushes some buttons. And more importantly, _ **this is also true when rap artists perform quote unquote, “live”** _. You’re just wrong on the facts here. In the last few years I have seen Jay-Z, Kanye West, Eminem, Big Boi, Li’l Wayne, Snoop Dogg, Talib Kweli, The Knux, Childish Gambino, El-P, and a few others I can’t think of at the moment…and they all performed with a full band. I’ve seen small-time rappers perform with just a backing track, but I’ve seen other artists do the same thing, like guitarist Marnie Stern who did a tour where her “band” was an iPod on her guitar strap. But the trend among middle-to-big-time rappers is definitely toward the full band. > [@](#): > > And even the vocal track is not singing. It’s not really even sing-talking. It’s a sort of a rhythmic poetic performance art. So that’s, one, no musical instruments and, two, no singing which, three, equals not music. That doesn’t deny the fact that it’s a legitimate form of entertainment that’s sold & performed thru the same venues as musicians are. If you deny that rappers are musicians, then you have to deny that percussionists are musicians as well. I can’t think of an argument that would allow one but not the other. > [@](#): > > Want proof? There is no such thing as ‘classic rap’. Sirius 46 begs to differ. I reject the premise of the OP, as well. When I was in high school the Top 40 was dominated by the likes of Ace of Base and Paula Abdul, and now we have the likes of Beyonce and Adele, so I think we’ve come out ahead. (Sure, there were some talented artists then, and we have our Katy Perrys now, but I just don’t see a negative trend.) There is terrific music being made in every genre right now, even if it might require some digging to find it. Unfortunately, if you’re over the age of 22 or so music is not really being marketed to you at all. There is some once you get over 40 or so and into the Celtic Woman/Susan Boyle/Michael Buble demographic, but between the two is a no-man’s land. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/78 "2012-01-23T17:57:02Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176/79 "2012-01-23T22:49:48Z")
No. We have new technology for the creation of musical sounds, production of multi-track songs and distribution of those songs. Everytime we go through this - 78’s, 33’s and 45’s, electric guitars and big PA’s, Cassettes/8-Tracks, synth’s and samplers, CD’s and now mp3s, iTunes and file sharing - some artists know how to exploit the technology (regardless of whether they are talented or not) and some artists push back against the technology and go more old-school. So right now you’ve got Auto-tuned pop-machines like the Black-Eyed Peas and old-schoolers like Mumford and Sons. Same as it ever was… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-apparent-lack-of-talent-in-modern-pop-really-be-attributed-to-well-a-lack-of-talent/610176.md?page=3)