# Can the Black-White racial IQ gap in the US be environmentally explained? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877 "2012-07-01T04:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/241 "2012-07-13T23:07:04Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > You misread the study then. > > The -.02 is after controlling for skin color. Which controls for ancestry. That’s a form of the sociologist fallacy, OK, agreed, if they include both skin color and hereditary measures as explanatory variables, they’re probably mis-estimating the correlation (through there are ways around this, I don’t know if they used them; need to spend more time reading the paper) ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/242 "2012-07-13T23:10:28Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You know, I Google searched some of your posts here. You post word-for-word stuff in lots of places across the internet. Lots of discussions of race IQ differences using exactly the same language you used here, even the same typos. Thank God for copy and paste! ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/243 "2012-07-13T23:22:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Well, they have a published, peer-reviewed paper to support their argument. You don’t. I don’t need to have one as I can cite [others](http://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/mayr-2002-biology-and-race.pdf) who have or had a higher standing in the relevant fields. By the way, you never answered the question re: the NPI. You said you agree with their position. so, are you a white supremacist? [/QUOTE] Could you define “White supremacist”? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/244 "2012-07-13T23:33:20Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > I don’t need to have one as I can cite [others](http://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/mayr-2002-biology-and-race.pdf) who have or had a higher standing in the relevant fields. I take it you haven’t read the paper you just cited? Not only does it not support the theory of a black race, it says specifically: “One can conclude from these observations that although there are certain genetic differences between races, there is no genetic evidence whatsoever to justify the uncomplimentary evaluation that members of one race have sometimes made of members of other races. There simply is no biological basis for racism.” I think that was directed at you. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > By the way, you never answered the question re: the NPI. You said you agree with their position. so, are you a white supremacist? > > Could you define “White supremacist”? Do I really have to? By the way, when searching on your posts, I note that you’ve been banned from a number of boards for making racist posts. Do you post to stormfront? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/245 "2012-07-14T00:27:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Also, you seem to be assuming that if we’d had more subjects in the study, we’d have had the same result but at a higher level of significance. This is of course utterly wrong. > [@Chuck11](#): > > “Seem” is a weasel word. Not in this context. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/246 "2012-07-14T00:31:26Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > Could you define “White supremacist”? There’s a good definition [here.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/White_supremacist) > [@](#): > > **White supremacists, white supremacy,** and **white supremacism** refers to the fuck-wit stupidness claiming that white people are superior to others, or are a “master race” or some other such nonsense. See also [“racialism.”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racialism) > [@](#): > > **Racialism** is sometimes considered synonymous with racism, but often refers to frightening racial ideologies rather than mere run-of-the-mill bigotry. While racial prejudice is irrational, racialism attempts to rationalise it into a coherent doctrine. Examples of racialist governments include Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa. Examples of racialist pressure groups include the Aryan Nations and the Ku Klux Klan. > > Some forms of racialism are based on flawed interpretations of Christianity, and others on pseudoscience and flawed interpretations of science (particularly evolutionary biology). Sometimes, the term **scientific racism** is used to describe the latter. Diagrams showing the skull shapes and measurements of various races were used in racialist justifications for slavery during the 19th century, and appeared again in Nazi propaganda. Another facet of racialism is to refer to races in esoteric racist jargon. For example, racialist wiki Metapedia categorises races into “Caucasoid”, “Negroid” and “Mongoloid”. And, yes, the Metapedia entries for these terms do include skull measurement diagrams. > > Most racialists believe in some sort of hierarchy of races, and since in most cases they are white supremacists, this usually puts the white, Caucasian, or “Aryan”[1] race firmly at the top. While all racialists are certainly racist, not all racists are necessarily racialist, although the more stupid ones may be an easy target for racialist propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/247 "2012-07-14T00:37:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I take it you haven’t read the paper you just cited? Not only does it not support the theory of a black race, it says specifically: > > “One can conclude from these observations that although there are certain genetic differences between races, there is no genetic evidence whatsoever to justify the uncomplimentary evaluation that members of one race have sometimes made of members of other races. There simply is no biological basis for racism.” > > I think that was directed at you. Who do you outsource your thinking to? Mayr was open to the idea of genetic racial differences in intelligence. Hence he said: “The test results by themselves cannot tell us what percentage of the superior performance by the Asian-American students was due to their genetic endowment and what percentage to the cultural trait of being better prepared for the = test thanks to spending, on the whole, far more time on homework than the African-American students did.” (or “Anybody should be able to enjoy the benefits of our liberal society in spite of differences of religion, race, or socioeconomic status. Regard less of whether the difference in performance between individuals, or two groups, has biological or purely cultural causes, it is our moral obligation to see to it that each individual and group has an equal opportunity.”) (or “Geographical groups of humans, what biologists call races, tend to differ from each other in mean differences and sometimes even in specific single genes. But when it comes to the capacities that are required for the optimal functioning of our society, I am sure that the performance of any individual in any racial group can be matched by that of some individual in another racial group. This is what a population analysis reveals.”) You have to be pretty myopic to not see this. What he wasn’t open to was the ideas of genetic racial differences in personality; hence he said: “Curiously, when people make derogatory statements about members of other races, they often do not refer to biological traits at all, but rather to putative character traits m: embers of a certain racial group are said to be lazy, dishon est, unreliable, thievish, arrogant, etc. There is no scientific evidence of a genetic basis for any such negative traits. There is also no scientific evidence known to me that the genetic differences we do discover among the human races have any influence at all on personality. Most of the mentioned undesirable per sonality traits, if they are at all correlated with specific human populations…” The latter is what he was referring to by “uncomplimentary evaluation” and “racism.” But I’m not arguing about these (here), so this is irreverent. > [@](#): > > Do I really have to? Yes. How else am I supposed to know what you’re talking about? Can’t you even define the term? > [@](#): > > By the way, when searching on your posts, I note that you’ve been banned from a number of boards for making racist posts. Do you post to stormfront? As far as I know, I have only been banned from “Rational Skepticism”? The board administrator would not clarify why. No, Stormfront is a bit too lowbrow for my likes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/248 "2012-07-14T00:39:32Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > No, Stormfront is a bit too lowbrow for my likes. The National Policy Institute ain’t no higherbrow. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/249 "2012-07-14T00:56:10Z")
[quote=“BrainGlutton, post:246, topic:626877”] There’s a good definition [here.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/White_supremacist) I don’t know what “superior” means here. I know that there are mean trait differences between certain groups. In that sense some groups are superior in trait X or inferior in trait X. Is that what we are talking about? If not, what? ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/250 "2012-07-14T00:58:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The National Policy Institute ain’t no higherbrow. The Alternative Right, the NPI webzine, is definitely a step up – though I agree not highbrow. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/251 "2012-07-14T01:26:50Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > Who do you outsource your thinking to? This is funny in an ironic way, considering the rest of your post > [@](#): > > Mayr was open to the idea of genetic racial differences in intelligence. Cool. I am too. I just don’t think you (or anyone else) has proved any. > [@](#): > > “The test results by themselves cannot tell us what percentage of the superior performance by the Asian-American students was due to their genetic endowment and what percentage to the cultural trait of being better prepared for the = test thanks to spending, on the whole, far more time on homework than the African-American students did.” It’s absolutely funny to me the way you can read this and think it supports your particular biases. > [@](#): > > (or “Anybody should be able to enjoy the benefits of our liberal society in spite of differences of religion, race, or socioeconomic status. Regard less of whether the difference in performance between individuals, or two groups, has biological or purely cultural causes, it is our moral obligation to see to it that each individual and group has an equal opportunity.”) I read this and I think “this guy wouldn’t have liked **Chuck11** ”. You read this and you think…what? > [@](#): > > (or “Geographical groups of humans, what biologists call races, tend to differ from each other in mean differences and sometimes even in specific single genes. But when it comes to the capacities that are required for the optimal functioning of our society, I am sure that the performance of any individual in any racial group can be matched by that of some individual in another racial group. This is what a population analysis reveals.”) I read this and I think, this absolutely contradicts **Chuck11** ’s claims. You read this and you think…what? > [@](#): > > You have to be pretty myopic to not see this. Again, funny in an ironic way. > [@](#): > > Yes. How else am I supposed to know what you’re talking about? Can’t you even define the term? Oh, I can. I’m just shocked that you’ve never encountered this question before. Unless…you’re not being facetious, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/252 "2012-07-14T01:32:45Z")
This is a not so great example of the shit that I’m talking about: > **[ACLU alleges Michigan school district violated students’ ‘right to learn to...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/aclu-alleges-michigan-school-district-violated-students-right-to-learn-to-read/2012/07/11/gJQArf1jeW_story.html?hpid=z2)** > > In the first case of its kind, the American Civil Liberties Union is charging that the state of Michigan and a Detroit area school district have failed to adequately educate children, violating their “right to learn to read” under an obscure state... I guess that the above has _nothing_ to do with [the relative performance of Black school teachers](http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-11-08.pdf) on highly predictive standardized tests, which, of course, has nothing to do with the mysterious IQ gap and its cause. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/253 "2012-07-14T01:34:52Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > This is a not so great example of the shit that I’m talking about: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/aclu-alleges-michigan-school-district-violated-students-right-to-learn-to-read/2012/07/11/gJQArf1jeW\_story.html?hpid=z2](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/aclu-alleges-michigan-school-district-violated-students-right-to-learn-to-read/2012/07/11/gJQArf1jeW_story.html?hpid=z2) > > I guess that the above has _nothing_ to do with [the relative performance of Black school teachers](http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-11-08.pdf) on highly predictive standardized tests, which, of course, has nothing to do with the mysterious IQ gap and its cause. This has absolutely fuck-all to do with a discussion of whether an IQ gap has an environmental or genetic cause. Do you understand this? ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/254 "2012-07-14T01:56:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This is funny in an ironic way, considering the rest of your postCool. I am too. I just don’t think you (or anyone else) has proved any. It’s absolutely funny to me the way you can read this and think it supports your particular biases. > > I read this and I think “this guy wouldn’t have liked **Chuck11** ”. You read this and you think…what? > > I read this and I think, this absolutely contradicts **Chuck11** ’s claims. You read this and you think…what? You don’t seem to be familiar with [Mayr’s thinking](http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/B/B/M/W/_/scbbmw.pdf#xml=http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov:8080/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=http%3A%2F%2Fprofiles.nlm.nih.gov%2FSC%2FB%2FB%2FM%2FW%2F_%2Fscbbmw.pdf&doctype=xml&Collection=SC&QueryZip=Jensen&). Mayr opposed typological thinking. That’s what he identified as “racism.” He didn’t oppose the idea of mean racial differences in intelligence. Here is a comment of his on [Jensenism](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Jensenism): “John has already pointed out that there is nothing in our statement that reflects adversely on Jensen and his report. In a class I gave last year we devoted two hours to Jensen’s report, largely favorably, I might say, pointing out, however, how difficult it is to eliminate entirely the environmental factor.” Since I defend a “Jensenist” position, I see no reason why he would have disagreed with me. If you reread the passages, you will see that he is open to the Jensenist position. As for your other comment – so you can’t define the term in question, can you? ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/255 "2012-07-14T02:06:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This has absolutely fuck-all to do with a discussion of whether an IQ gap has an environmental or genetic cause. Do you understand this? And you’re Mr. On Topic, right? Let’s discuss the evidence then. I’ve been waiting for this-- but all you want to talk about is my political philosophy and the positions of a few of the authors that I have cited. Ok, from now on, I will only reply to on topic posts. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/256 "2012-07-14T02:10:23Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > And you’re Mr. On Topic, right? Let’s discuss the evidence then. I’ve been waiting for this-- but all you want to talk about is my political philosophy and the positions of a few of the authors that I have cited. > > Ok, from now on, I will only reply to on topic posts. Fair enough. A “racial-realist” who didn’t devolve into just making random nasty racist comments would be a welcome relief–I don’t think we’ve ever had one before. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/257 "2012-07-14T02:21:27Z")
(or “Geographical groups of humans, what biologists call races, **tend to differ from each other in mean differences** and sometimes even in specific single genes. But when it comes to the capacities that are required for the optimal functioning of our society, I am sure that the performance of any individual in any racial group can be matched **by that of some individual in another racial group**. This is what a population analysis reveals.”) I obviously agree with this point. I noted that only 20% of the phenotypic IQ variance is between populations. The populations differ in frequency; they don’t differ discretely. There are proportionately fewer Blacks at the upper IQ levels – at least in the US --but no matter how far up you go there will always be some. This is what Mayr is saying. And I completely agree. You’re not dealing with a typologist buddy. So stop typing me. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/258 "2012-07-14T08:12:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > A “racial-realist” who didn’t devolve into just making random nasty racist comments would be a welcome relief–I don’t think we’ve ever had one before. You must be new here. Generally the ones making nasty ad-hominem comments are those debating the “race realists”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/259 "2012-07-14T20:09:04Z")
Let me give a summary of where we are in the debate at this point: [ul][li] **Can black people be considered a race** [/li][/ul] **Result: Game over, man.** The geneticists have utterly, completely, and hilariously failed to prove their case. We have a guy who claims that blacks are a race, citing a paper that flat-out, explicitly says that he’s wrong. When paper authors feel the need to say, _in the abstract of their paper_, “guys, blacks aren’t a race.” And then you go ahead and cite their paper as the best support you have for your claim that blacks can be considered a race…well, you have an epic fail. Other evidence that black people can be considered a race consists of one guy with no credentials saying “well, I think they are.” OK, well I think they aren’t, and Every. Single. paper you have cited supports me. **Rating: Embarrassing. Please stop.** [ul][li] **Is there genetic evidence for an IQ gap** [/li][/ul] **Result: Could go either way** Only one paper has specifically tested racial background against IQ. That paper determined that there was no statistically significant correlation between West African heritage and IQ. We have additional evidence that maybe the authors didn’t choose the best possible measure of heritage, so that the calculation _might not_ have been able to pick up a genetic link even if there was one, so I’m downgrading this to inconclusive, but weakly in favor of an environmental explanation. Let me point out that do all sorts of _clearly mathematically wrong_ calculations to claim that the results actually support a genetic result…well, that suggests a certain level of bad-faith desperation. Guys, the evidence doesn’t support you, deal with it. **Rating: Your character is showing.** I’m calling this one: Are black people a race: No. It’s not even debatable. All (and I do mean **all** ) the legitimate genetic evidence says they aren’t, and anyone arguing otherwise is just ignorant. Is there a link between West African heritage and IQ: Inconclusive, but weakly favoring the “environmental” conclusion. We won’t know without more evidence, and anyone claiming to know for sure either way at this point is wrong. Not much point in debating this until we have better tests of the correlation of genetic heritage and IQ. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877/260 "2012-07-14T21:08:24Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > So do you or do you not grant the distinction between race as zoologically defined and race as [other-wisely defined in biology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotype)? What’s the question? That different life science disciplines use different terminology? That’s hardly controversial. Are any human races “ecotypes”? Not on your nelly. > [@](#): > > Or would you argue that all biologically defined race concepts are identical to the concept used in zoology? No. Just that the zoological concept you’ve characterised as “zoological race” (geographical subspecies) has no relevance to any discussion about people. All extant _Homo sapiens_ are one subspecies. Case closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-black-white-racial-iq-gap-in-the-us-be-environmentally-explained/626877.md?page=14)