Can the dead contact the living and other related issues

bwk wrote:

“2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram, Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah [1] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eliud,
15 Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,”

– Matthew 1:2-15
Yep, real edge-of-your-seat stuff there.

Yes lets clear somethings up.

I know that you can’t prove a negative.

How can the claimant must bear the burden of proof if you will not even look at it.

You ask for proof but any proof is unacceptable.

I can not think of anything to say about the concept of judging people without looking the evidence myself that does not belong in the pit.

What I am most distressed about this thread is the idea that it is some how smart or scientific to judge JE without a look at JE. How on earth can you say this is scientific? The claim that JE is bogus based not on looking at the evidence but rather on your personal bias is not science. It something else but it is not science.
I visited the site you recomended. I am well aware of James ‘The Amazing’ Randi and the work he does. Funny thing, you mention how when someone wows the masses you watch your wallet. Randi asked for fifty bucks to become a member at his site. (although articles were free to read) JE hasn’t asked for money from me unless I want to buy a book. [sarcasm] Of course Randi has no ulterior motives. He isn’t out to make a buck. He uses science to pay his bills. [/sarcasm]
Oh and I didn’t learn anything new about cold reading at Randi’s site that I didn’t already know. However Randi did write at his site that JE show uses editing to show only ‘hits’. NOT TRUE There are several misses in every show I have seen. Randi also wrote about vewing a show with JE and some other guy I have neever heard of. This is a show I never saw so I am willing to take Randi at face value. I wish you could do the same for me. OF course I can talk about the show because I have seen it. I really can’t talk about a show with someone who hasn’t seen it.

Thank you and good day.

Twice, as I said in my initial post. I saw nothing that was not explainable by a moderately skilled cold-reader, perhaps augmented by some audience sampling. He even used the “well, this spirit isnt your relative, but it’s someone who wants to put me in touch with your relative” gag when the name(s)/initial(s) he kept throwing out were not acknowledged.

BTW, in looking at eh Randi site did you fail to see the email from a person claiming to have been in the audience for one show? It is here. A few relevant passages:

Jingo noted:

Exactly. And each time, some believer comes along and says, “Oh, sure, those other guys may have been frauds, but this one is real! How could you not see that?!”

Sound familiar? < sigh >

Speaking of which, Zebra said:

Yeah, and? Randi didn’t ask for money from you unless you agree with him and want to join his organization. Meanwhile, JE gets paid for his TV show. So what’s your point? He isn’t allowed to ask people to join his organization to promote scientific thinking? Or are you just so desperate that you’ll grasp at anything in a vain attempt to divert attention?

===
Funny, just as I was typing this, “Weird Al” Yankovic’s song “Your Horoscope for Today” was playing over my speakers:

“Now you may find it inconceivable or at the very least a bit unlikely that the relative position of the planets and the stars could have a special deep significance or meaning that exclusively applies to you, but let me give you my assurance that these forecasts and predictions are all based on solid, scientific documented evidence, so you would have to be some kind of moron not to realize that every single one of them is absolutely true.”

No I did not see this particular bit but as you know the site is quite large. Thank you for showing it to me.

Now this is credible evidence. (of course we take this person at his word although we should check it out befor passing judgement) Gee I guess you can prove a negative. Just like in any fraud case it is the prosecutor not the defendant who must show fraud. Dismissing any an all claims without looking at the evidence is not scientific or logical. If you feel the subject is a wast of time then stay off the thread.

Which is what I intend to do.

Thank you Spirtus Mundi and everyone else.

Originally posted by Zebra

"Dismissing any an all claims without looking at the evidence is not scientific or logical. "

What people are doing is not dismissing JE’s claims without looking at the evidence. They are simply recognizing that, at best, the evidence being presented does not prove the claim. By, at best, I mean that even if we assume that what shows up on the videotape of the show is completely accurate (no edits), and there is no collusion between JE and the audience, the claim would not be proved by a series of dramatical hits. There are too many ways for the information to be conveyed consciously (by fraud) or unconsciously (by self-deception). The fact is that a definitive test would be easy to arrange (For instance, JE is taped while contacting a randomly selected person’s deceased relatives, with the relatives out of the room, or (if the questions JE asks help him ‘home in’ on the right person) JE conveys his questions to the relatives via a third person (who doesn’t know the person beforehand) with a walkie-talkie) indicates that he is not serious about proving his claim - again, possibly because he is a fraud, but just as possibly because he can’t conceive of being wrong. Either way, why should anyone be concerned about a claim that one makes no serious attempt to prove?

Andy L

Zebra said:

No, you can’t. All you have proven is that in this particular case, the editors screwed with what really happened. JE could claim that he really does have powers, but in this one particular case, the editors wanted to make them seem even greater. In fact, there have been other claimants who have said just that – that they resort to magic tricks only when their powers fail them for some reason.

Can we prove that this is false? No. Can we make some reasonable judgements? Yes. That is what all of us have been doing from the start.

BTW, I still want to know what you were trying to imply about Randi…

Ahem:

Randi is inviolation of section 33 subset A. of the Internet Commerce code which states that you can’t ask for money on the web unless you have psychic powers or porn.

You gotta keep on top of these things, man.

Yeah, well, prove he doesn’t have psychic powers!

So there!

Hmph.

laughing

That’s *still * better than ‘Ghost’…

Felice: Forgive me, I overstated my position: A good alternate theory with scientific support (veterinary evidence that dogs lack the proper vocal structure, say) is entirely sufficient. I said proof, what I really meant was a decently supported alternate theory. Dragons myths coming from ancient finds of dinosaur bones, for example. Shed doubt, please! But let it be reasonable scientific doubt. If you just say, I have never heard my dog speak, that isn’t sufficient to suggest that dogs can’t speak. You have to add the rest of your supporting data. Such supporting data is why I don’t beleive in the ‘psychic readings’ process - heck, I do tarot… I certainly can’t track where I get my info from, or why I choose one meaning of a card over another - but that is what intuition is about. Intuition is highly studied, and proven to exist as a normal human brain process. I suspect that a lot of ‘real psychics’ are intuitively using cold-reading techniques, and just don’t know it.

glee: Did I sound like I expected you to beleive ghosts or souls exist? That would require conversion to my specific faith, which process I would find abhorrant. Your faith is your own, BELEIVE what you want. I had an experience (or three…). I expect only that you beleive that I had these experiences (the facts, not the meaning), not that they are caused by the same things I believe they are caused by. Feel free to beleive I had a seizure, if it suits you. Or that my subconscious did some creative editing. I don’t think that (presuming ghosts/souls do exist) THEY care if you believe or not, either. Otherwise, you’d surely have had a similar experience yourself. It is absolutely no skin off my nose if you believe they do not exist. I only take offense to people saying they cannot exist simply because there is no proof that they do. Semantics, but then, you asked a writer.

The whole argument seems to be another science-vs.-faith one, really. It is a matter of what you BELIEVE, with or without the presence of scientific facts/data.

“I don’t believe they exist, and I will not believe they exist until they are scientifically proven to exist.” FINE with me. Your theology/philosophy plus science. I respect this position.

“They do not exist BECAUSE they are not proven to exist.” BAD, in my book. Personal philosophy = science. Belief that they do not exist is stated as fact or science, instead of BELIEF. This is what I call ‘blind faith in science.’ It is a very rigid position, too. What, did brains not have electrical function until they were proven to? Was the world flat before we proved it was round? Logic says that the proven condition existed before we proved it (in most cases). Therefore until something is proven, there are a LOT of possible answers, not just one.

“They MUST exist even though there is no proof for their existence.” BAD - theology overrules science. Usually from strong faith, but also pretty rigid. Again, only one possibility is allowed, despite lack of supporting evidence.

Even worse, “They must exist even though you have provided solid or respectable evidence that something else is going on, and can identify what that something is, repeat it under controlled situations, etc.” Blind faith, basically covering the ears and singing LA LA LA as loud as you can. Someone can’t step outside their pre-set definitions of the universe. What they want to beleive is stronger than reality.

“They might exist even though there is currently no proof for their existence.” FINE by me - theology/belief again is the basis, but belief is not equated to fact. This is my position. If you provide me with data to create a reasonable doubt, I’ll change my position to ‘they probably don’t exist’ and if you provide me with a LOT of doubt, I’ll go for ‘they don’t exist.’ Faith is strong, but not impervious to reason. :slight_smile: (I’m noted for annoying people by saying ‘so far as we KNOW’ - I’m perpetually in doubt.)

And one I haven’t seen here explicitly, but have heard before, “Even if you give me proof they exist, I still won’t believe you.” BAD. Totally blind faith in science, rejection of anything outside the box (singing LA LA LA…). Validating the trial/proof methods is smart, though…

Tons of subtle shadings, too, like, “Even though you have proof they do not exist, I beleive that something supernatural is working THROUGH that method.” That is, fake psychics are also psychic, but just think they are faking. (OUCH, my head hurts!)

Personally, for scientifically unexplainable experiences, I apply beleif. Beleif is theology or philosophy. Faith. Which has nothing to DO with science, and more to do with personal meaning. IMHO, it is just as wrong to say such things can not exist to someone who has faith in them, as it is to say God does not exist to someone who beleives in God. You might DO that, but I bet people think you are a jerk if you do. I know there are people here who think anyone who beleives in God/Higher-Power/etc is deluding themselves. And there are people here who think that anyone who DOESN’T believe in a higher power is delusional, too. Both are issues of faith - presence or lack thereof. Anyone here see ‘Leap of Faith’ with Steve Martin?

A good scientist doesn’t decide they are right before the proof is finished. There has to be enough doubt to be able to see the unexpected solution, or even one that is a little off to the side of the one you thought was most likely. You have to be willing to be WRONG in order to find TRUTH. Heck, maybe my favored theory is wrong, too (entirely possible). I’m open to that possibility. Guess I won’t know until I die, if someone doesn’t provide me my doubt-inducing alternate data before then. I actually wish someone WOULD come up with a good study of these experiences! Comparative brain scans maybe?

pardon the dyslexic spelling, please (and I thought I’d spell-checked…)

How do you prove ‘immediate apprehension without reasoning’ exists? Surely you’d have to ‘know’ what someone knew already, then give them a problem they didn’t already know the answer to. So intuition has not been proven.

I suspect all psychics are cold readers, either accidental or deliberate. There has been no response to Randi’s offer of $1,000,000 for ONE genuine psychic demonstration.

Surely various belief systems, not just yours, include ghosts + souls? But thanks for not trying to convert me! :slight_smile:

Sure I believe you had an experience. I just don’t think it was supernatural.
People have been making unsubstantiated claims for centuries. Then other people say ‘there MUST be something in it, because all these other people have said so.’ If ghosts existed, we’d have some physical evidence by now.

But scientists don’t say anything can be proved not to exist. Show scientists something worth investigating (i.e. some evidence!), and they’ll investigate. If that evidence stands up, I’ll believe it. But why spend time on something with NO physical evidence?
Semantics, but then, you asked a sceptic. :wink:

Well if science is believing a theory based on evidence (and being ready to change if contradictory facts come to light), and faith is belief without the presence of scientific facts/data, then I’ll take science.
I could add that some faith involves belief DESPITE the presence of scientific facts/data. Not my cup of tea, really.

Whoaaah there! What on earth is a ‘scientifically unexplainable experience’? Have you investigated it scientifically?
I’m afraid you may mean a ‘scientifically uninvestigatable experience’. I read a book by a psychic. He said he heard voices. He decided to record them (excellent - the scientific method!). The tape recorder he used didn’t pick up anything. He said this PROVED that the ghosts existed, could speak to him, AND delete the tape. I think it proves he’s desperate.

I agree with this. All I would add is that a good study needs just one piece of evidence. No evidence means nothing to investigate…

CITE - regarding intuition being a studied (if not well-understood) normal human process. Okay, sue me, it is an article, not a direct cite of a study, but it is directly about such studies, and it is a pretty decent article at that.

http://www.fastcompany.com/online/38/klein.html

It has good info on the ESP angle, too (backing up my ‘intuition posing as ESP/psychic skills’ theory)

Didn’t you take any psych classes in college, glee? Loads of things are studied without having solid data other than a set of individuals with similar experiences (like synesthesia, say). Neuropsychology is full of such studies - self-reported symptom sets, too. Didn’t I say I’d take an alternate theory, with evidence? (How many times do I have to say that?) So study the LARGE group of measurable events - the very people who have reported such experiences IN THEMSELVES represent your data. I’ll submit to a brain scan, EEG, and a psychological workup; now you just have to find a couple hundred others who will, too. Prove we have a different brain structure, or biochemistry, or mini-seizures, or whatever, (as compared to people who don’t have such experiences) and that is enough proof for me that ghosts/spirits/souls are all in our heads. Again, since one can’t disprove something (no proof of negatives), focus on proving that something else is going on.

I guess you also missed my point that SINCE scientists don’t say ‘it isn’t proven therefore it cannot be’, people claiming that ‘it isn’t proven therefore it cannot be’ are not being scientific. They are instead stating a belief. THAT is the “semantics” - define the terms, and use them correctly: Beleif vs. Fact. I can happily respect, ‘it isn’t proven therefore {I beleive} it cannot be,’ but it ticks me off when people use it in the manner of, ‘it isn’t proven therefore {it is a fact that} it cannot be.’ When you say someone is Wrong, that implies that FACTS are incorrect. “Your wife is WRONG, ghosts do not exist” is implying that her facts are in error. A good scientifically minded person won’t go there (or treads very carefully when they do). Misguided, deluded, crazy, misled, even tricked - those are beleif-based. I prefer person-of-faith, but that is my spin. :slight_smile: Beleif vs. fact is the semantic problem I was trying to address.

::sigh:: This whole point was only supposed to be a SIDE issue, and it is taking over. That’ll teach me to mention a pet peeve.

(and I’d want more than a single data point for a real study, thanks… Oh, and I have yet to find a religion that specifically includes pre-birth contacts, so that is why it is just MY personal theology involved - I didn’t want to presume on anyone else’s.)

Otherwise, I think we are in close agreement - ‘psychics’ are using intuition or cold-reading, my experiences are only experiences as far as you are concerned (the meaning I give them is my own only, and I am not offended if you think something else is going on - nor do I think you are WRONG to beleive what you do), scientists realistically can’t study what they can’t measure (so they should study the parts they CAN measure), nobody has any empirical proof of contacts-with-the-non-living (or alternate proof of something else happening, either), and people who use trickery to dupe beleivers for personal gain are bad (did you actually say that? Maybe that part was just implied…).

Is that more clear now?

glee said:

Precisely.

As I said on the Morton Downey Jr. show (not his original, but his weak comeback attempt), psychics are either fooling others or fooling themselves.

Here’s a full write-up on that show, in case anybody’s interested (and hasn’t seen it before) :

http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v03/n03/dont-push-me-lady.html

hedra,

thanks for your cite. I read it carefully.

The author (Klein) said ‘In a matter of minutes, the (firefighter) lieutenant made several critical decisions that ultimately saved the man’s life. But he ignored the conventional rules of decision making. He didn’t ponder the best course of action or weigh his options. He didn’t rely on deductive thinking or on an analysis of probabilities. How did he know what to do? When Klein asked him, the lieutenant shrugged and said that he simply drew on his experience.
For Klein, “experience” is not a satisfactory answer. Yet most of the time, that is the only answer that he gets.’

So here is evidence of ‘intuition’? No, this trained firefighter uses his experience. He’s faced this situation before, either in training or a previous fire (or both).
But Klein says the man has not given a satisfactory answer. I think Klein is wrong!

Sure, you study the workings of the brain by asking people about their experiences.
But if you say ** an outside agency ** is causing the experience, then I want evidence of that.
I don’t need your offer of brain scans (though it would be interesting!) - I’m certainly not saying there’s anything wrong with people who report ghosts. After all, I sometimes have weird dreams (like everyone else). But eye-witnesses are notoriously inaccurate.
If a ghost can be seen by you, then I believe science can also detect it. But so far, no such detection.
It’s like UFO’s. Most are easily explained, but people still say ‘there’s a large number of sightings, so there must be something to it.’

No, I have already agreed with that.
What scientists say is that there is no physical evidence for ghosts. So what is there to investigate?

Cheer up -at least you’re making interesting points! :slight_smile:

I agree with this 100%.
You are a good writer!

glee - I read Klein’s dissatisfaction with the term ‘experience’ as not ‘it isn’t experience at all’ but it is MORE - the way the human brain translates experience - and that ITSELF is intuition. Experience ALONE isn’t the answer, but how we manage the information (intuitive process) IS. Are you SURE you read this carefully?

Here are the qoutes that lead me to this interpretation:

That is, intuition is a way of accessing data we have already collected, categorizing it, comparing it, and processing it.

AND

That is, through experience, they develop a filter for critical data. Again, normal process, data gathering, analysis, just not on a conscious level.

AND

Again, the nurse collected data, analyzed it, and responded. It appears to be instant, but it is JUST data analysis, based on experience, with a lot of deep processing to recognize the danger signals.

AND

Expertise (knowledge, data) is the basis of intuitive decision making. This woman has so much knowledge she can’t necessarly explain it anymore, because it processes at an intuitive level.

So I’m not sure what you were reading… It didn’t seem to be the same article I was reading.

I’m confused on one other thing - if it isn’t in my head, it isn’t supernatural, and it doesn’t exist in the ‘real’ world EITHER, what other thing could POSSIBLY be going on??? You’ve excluded ALL options - There’s nothing wrong with me, AND it isn’t supernatural, AND it can’t be measured as real in a material/scientific sense? What is left?

Anyway, I’m glad I’m at least being interesting. That’s SOMETHING. :slight_smile: (and thanks for the compliment on the writing - I think my posts are too long, but I TRY to be coherent!)

Um… I do hope you don’t mean I’m lying?

And if I am on acid and see ants crawling out of the walls, and you can’t see them, well, I am going to say it IS in my head. I say I see them, yet nobody else can see them, let alone measure them. But I bet there is some WICKED brain activity going on!

Such ‘misfires’ (paranormal experiences) in a non-drugged state may even be within the NORMAL parameters of human brain function, which doesn’t mean they are real outside my head. Which is why I’d like that to be studied. If that is the cause, then we can all stop wondering, right? I don’t understand why you have a problem with testing to see if there is a brain-activity source for this stuff… I don’t mind, I won’t be offended, and it would provide evidence that while I THOUGHT I was seeing/experiencing something outside myself, that perception was internal to my own head. And if there is nothing going on different in my head when I see something like this, that suggests that a different avenue of study is needed… ruling out other theories is valid science, too.

Unfortunately, I probably won’t be able to reply to this thread tomorrow daytime - I really shouldn’t post from work. (bad when you are a consultant!) Evil SDMB is sucking my brain - or maybe it is that I don’t get to get into such discussions very often… too many of my friends either agree with me or are afraid of arguing. Darn. I love a good fight… um, debate. :slight_smile:

Well I was all set to call that reasoning. These firefighters have a lot of experience and training. If they apply that rapidly, to me it just shows they were well-trained and so recognised the patterns quickly.

Then I went to the Dictionary.

Intuition :

Immediate apprehension without reasoning.

So far, so good. You can’t reason without facts or prior training etc.

Reason:

  1. Intellectual facility by which conclusions are drawn from premises.

Lovely.

Reason:

  1. Faculty transcending the understanding … intuition.

:rolleyes:
If the Dictionary says there’s confusion, what should we do?

hedra,

no, I certainly don’t think you’re lying.
And I like an ‘animated discussion’ too! :wink:

I see what you mean about brain scans to perhaps show that ghosts are hallucinations.
But have we reached that level of monitoring the brain yet?