# Can the Democrats win the Alabama senate special election in December? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504 "2017-08-13T00:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/421 "2017-11-10T20:40:31Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > The Republican Senate Fundraising committee pull out of a joint fundraising agreement with Moore. > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/national-republican-senatorial-committee-ends-joint-fundraising-agreement-with-roy-moore-campaign/2017/11/10/f393278c-c62e-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512\_story.htmlhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/national-republican-senatorial-committee-ends-joint-fundraising-agreement-with-roy-moore-campaign/2017/11/10/f393278c-c62e-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/national-republican-senatorial-committee-ends-joint-fundraising-agreement-with-roy-moore-campaign/2017/11/10/f393278c-c62e-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512_story.htmlhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/national-republican-senatorial-committee-ends-joint-fundraising-agreement-with-roy-moore-campaign/2017/11/10/f393278c-c62e-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512_story.html) > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk LOL, surprise, surprise! So… apparently no problems with an instant limitation on funding based on, “if true…” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/422 "2017-11-10T20:51:42Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Do you deny that you have argued in this thread that it was too long ago to worry about and we don’t have actual proof? Or are you saying these aren’t excuses for those who continue to support Moore? > > Here, I’ll refresh your memory. (bolding mine) This thread is a wreck full of hyperbole and vitriol. It’s not worth my time to answer any questions in this thread. In another thread with people who are at least acting with civility perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/423 "2017-11-10T20:52:55Z")
Do you think the judge’s statements are a denial? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/424 "2017-11-10T20:57:03Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > …If Republicans really wanted to do the right thing, they didn’t have to add the, “if true,” language and they don’t have to wait for a legal adjudication of Moore’s guilt or innocence to employ a standard of decency… Woah. Hold that horse. Fair is our brand, and that isn’t fair. Proof is still a respectable standard, it must remain so. Because I know that Mr Moore is no better than a bucket of moldy lizard droppings, I have no qualms about my opinion that he is likely guilty. However, were I sworn to a jury I could not give that verdict. I am still entitled to my opinion and to share that opinion, but not to enforce it. The appropriate trial is the ballot box. If they vote him worthy, that’s that! Outside of a _boney fido_ legal adjudication. Power to the people even when they are wrong. > [@](#): > > …I would dispute this. I’m not a mother, let alone a nursing one… and my milk curdles every single time I see his revolting visage. And I’m grateful to have never been in his actual presence. Perhaps. I know that his image alone is enough to shrivel my junk to the configuration of “cold shower scrubbing with ice cubes”. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/425 "2017-11-10T20:58:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The problem of victims being attacked for coming forward, and not being believed, is nigh-infinitely greater than the problem of false allegations about sexual misconduct. > > Yes, it’s fair to consider that it’s much more likely that these women are not lying than they are. There’s some non-zero possibility that these allegations are not true, as it goes with any allegations. But that doesn’t mean it’s ever okay to attack or publicly question someone for coming forward – it’s not (barring real evidence that they’re lying). A common estimate (by police departments) of the rate of false rape accusations, discussed below, is somewhere around 30%. So yes, it’s more likely than not that the accuser in any given rape case is telling the truth. It’s a little over twice as likely though, not ‘infinitely’ more likely. > **[Lies, Damned Lies, And Social Media (Part 5 of ∞)](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-social-media-part-5-of-%E2%88%9E/)** > > \[content warning: rape, false rape allegations. Some people have been linking this article claiming it says things it DEFINITELY DOES NOT, so please read it before you have an opinion.\] (see also p… ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/426 "2017-11-10T21:04:44Z")
What I said, for those who were slow to comprehend: In Alabama, he may only have committed a misdemeanor offense. The question being raised is: should/will Alabamans switch their vote on the basis of the allegations? Those arguing they should are asserting that someone from Alabama should change their viewpoint on how to vote on the bases of a 40 year old allegation of a misdemeanor crime. So, the potential pitfall: Democrats who committed misdemeanor offenses 40 years ago being kept out of office. Examples: drug use (often admitted), minor shoplifting or other such offenses, tax evasion of a minor nature, assaults, etc. And, for the record, no, I don’t feel like my moral outrage should ensue over activities by someone from a different culture which _my_ culture would find outrageous. If Roy Moore had done the same thing in a state where sexual contact with a 14 y.o. was a felony offense for someone of his age at the time, I’d be much more likely to suggest that Democrats get morally upset about the notion of electing him. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/427 "2017-11-10T21:05:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, there are different possible patterns. But the fact that he solicited other teenagers who lived with their parents when he was thirty makes it a little harder to dismiss this teenager’s claims. I suppose it’s possible that in his thirties he solicited only teenagers who lived with their parents and who were over the age of consent, and that this teenager who lived with her parents and was under the age of consent is making the whole thing up–but that doesn’t seem super likely. You don’t think the age of consent makes a difference here? I think it does. See this is why a study like this one from Guttmacher is so useful, because it allows you to address the question. The interesting figure here is Table 3, it looks at teenage girls who have older partners, cross-tabbed with the age at first intercourse, and how coercive the situation felt in retrospect. The take-away is that substantially older partners are more likely than same-age partners to be coercive when the girl in question is 16 or below, but not any more likely (maybe less likely than same-age partners) when she is 18 or 19. That says to me either there’s a substantial difference in maturity that takes place around 18, or else the population of men who date 18-year olds is quite different than the ones who date 16-year olds. > **[3001298.pdf](https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/article_files/3001298.pdf)** > > 99.99 KB ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/428 "2017-11-10T21:06:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What I said, for those who were slow to comprehend: > > In Alabama, he may only have committed a misdemeanor offense. > > The question being raised is: should/will Alabamans switch their vote on the basis of the allegations? > > Those arguing they should are asserting that someone from Alabama should change their viewpoint on how to vote on the bases of a 40 year old allegation of a misdemeanor crime. > > So, the potential pitfall: Democrats who committed misdemeanor offenses 40 years ago being kept out of office. Examples: drug use (often admitted), minor shoplifting or other such offenses, tax evasion of a minor nature, assaults, etc. > > And, for the record, no, I don’t feel like my moral outrage should ensue over activities by someone from a different culture which _my_ culture would find outrageous. If Roy Moore had done the same thing in a state where sexual contact with a 14 y.o. was a felony offense for someone of his age at the time, I’d be much more likely to suggest that Democrats get morally upset about the notion of electing him. My response is no, the outrage should be based on the action and not how the crime is codified in state law. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/429 "2017-11-10T21:08:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Woah. Hold that horse. Fair is our brand, and that isn’t fair. _ **Proof is still a respectable standard, it must remain so.** _ > > Because I know that Mr Moore is no better than a bucket of moldy lizard droppings, I have no qualms about my opinion that he is likely guilty. However, were I sworn to a jury I could not give that verdict. I am still entitled to my opinion and to share that opinion, but not to enforce it. I’m not disputing that, _ **for a criminal conviction** _. But as a voter in Alabama, you’re not going to have the luxury of such an adjudication. You’re going to have to decide on the basis of what’s in front of you right now – and so is the Republican Senate. But they’re not. Well, except as it suits them. As I pointed out upthread, they sure didn’t wait to withhold funding on the basis of, “if true,” did they? So their actions are already in conflict with their words. Either you stand by your man on the basis of, “if true,” or you make a judgment on the fundamental decency of the person to hold office on the basis of what is in front of you. How else could they do it? I really can’t think of a reasonable alternative. Defend him on the basis that he hasn’t been convicted, until there is a conviction and he’s already seated in the Senate? Honestly, I don’t know. Is there a difference between someone’s fitness for office based on the totality of their character? Or must everyone wait for a conviction before deciding, even in the face of credible evidence from witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/430 "2017-11-10T21:09:49Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > So, the potential pitfall: Democrats who committed misdemeanor offenses 40 years ago being kept out of office. Examples: drug use (often admitted), minor shoplifting or other such offenses, tax evasion of a minor nature, assaults, etc. I don’t see the importance if the misdemeanor/felony distinction here. We are certainly free to be outraged by a misdemeanor sexual crime and shrug off a misdemeanor drug or shoplifting allegation. There is nothing wrong with being unwilling to vote for a person who does this, regardless of what crime (if any) it may constitute. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/431 "2017-11-10T21:20:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This thread is a wreck full of hyperbole and vitriol. It’s not worth my time to answer any questions in this thread. In another thread with people who are at least acting with civility perhaps. Now THIS is funny. Good one. Give my regards to Brave, brave Sir Robin on your way out. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/432 "2017-11-10T21:21:35Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Those arguing they should are asserting that someone from Alabama should change their viewpoint on how to vote on the bases of a 40 year old allegation of a misdemeanor crime. Well, no. They’re suggesting that people would (or should) change their vote on a basis of morals and character. Standing in my front yard and screaming racial slurs for six hours a day isn’t a crime (aside from a possible noise citation but let’s presume I stay under the decibel level required). If someone had a credible case that a candidate had that as his hobby, I wouldn’t vote for him despite there not even being a misdemeanor crime in question. I don’t really need a legal text to tell me that bringing 14 year old girls home to diddle them over their panties and try to a stroke job through my undies is wrong. Other people may be more comfortable taking refuge in “But it’s only a misdemeanor…” but I’m not one of those people. I have the unfortunate suspicion that a lot of Alabama Republicans are though. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/433 "2017-11-10T21:26:02Z")
I’ve never felt the desire to quote a [tweet](https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/928999549376528385) from Mitt Romney before, but I like this one: > [@](#): > > Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside. My voting decisions have everything to do with character, and nothing to do with criminal law. There are plenty of bad acts that are perfectly legal that make a candidate unfit to serve in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/434 "2017-11-10T21:33:36Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Because people lie. People I know lie to me. I have been guilty of lying in the past. Strangers would certainly lie to me. > > If I find five people who say that Barack Obama told them that all white people were inferior, would you believe them? Why would or should you? > > Having a society where the allegations of one person will have consequences for another person with no corroboration almost puts us in a Salem Witch Trial type of system. There is no defense to forty year old allegations. So you’re suggesting that all these women lied, putting themselves in the national spotlight where they will be constantly attacked, threatened, and degraded for…what? Shits and giggles? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/435 "2017-11-10T21:36:07Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So you’re suggesting that all these women lied, putting themselves in the national spotlight where they will be constantly attacked, threatened, and degraded for…what? Shits and giggles? No, obviously to stop Republicans from Making America Great Again. > [@](#): > > We are are in the midst of a spiritual battle with those who want to silence our message ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/436 "2017-11-10T21:36:34Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So you’re suggesting that all these women lied, putting themselves in the national spotlight where they will be constantly attacked, threatened, and degraded for…what? Shits and giggles? And in the absence of any evidence whatsoever that they lied. I wonder, how many of these women have already received death threats, d’ya think? ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/437 "2017-11-10T21:37:22Z")
The whole misdemeanor versus felony argument is just a smokescreen. If a candidate I supporter announced they’d been busted for smoking a few joints in their college dorm 40 years ago or used to have a lead foot and racked up a ton of speeding tickets (when the speed limit was 55), I could care less. If Moore was perusing women significantly older than himself at 32, then I could care less. Someone perusing women in their teens while he’s already graduated from law school is just creepy. There’s a world of difference from 18 to 28 and that’s much greater than 28 to 38. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/438 "2017-11-10T21:38:20Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What I said, for those who were slow to comprehend: > > In Alabama, he may only have committed a misdemeanor offense. > > The question being raised is: should/will Alabamans switch their vote on the basis of the allegations? > > Those arguing they should are asserting that someone from Alabama should change their viewpoint on how to vote on the bases of a 40 year old allegation of a misdemeanor crime. > > So, the potential pitfall: Democrats who committed misdemeanor offenses 40 years ago being kept out of office. Examples: drug use (often admitted), minor shoplifting or other such offenses, tax evasion of a minor nature, assaults, etc. > > And, for the record, no, I don’t feel like my moral outrage should ensue over activities by someone from a different culture which _my_ culture would find outrageous. If Roy Moore had done the same thing in a state where sexual contact with a 14 y.o. was a felony offense for someone of his age at the time, I’d be much more likely to suggest that Democrats get morally upset about the notion of electing him. In Alabama, the allegations are that he molested a child. I, personally, don’t give a flying fuck what level of crime the state assigns to that act. I’ll happily vote against any Democrat that molested a child 40 years ago, as well. You might not have noticed, but it’s not a legal question at all - it’s a moral one. My morals say that kiddy-diddling is wrong, and supporting those who have done it is also wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/439 "2017-11-10T21:40:31Z")
Out of curiosity, why does Moore’s campaign chairman keep referring to him as “The Judge”? He got fired, he’s not a judge. He’s a shit bag of a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/440 "2017-11-10T21:54:41Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Out of curiosity, why does Moore’s campaign chairman keep referring to him as “The Judge”? He got fired, he’s not a judge. He’s a shit bag of a civilian. Because lying is a perfectly acceptable and very Christian virtue for a Republican candidate for Senate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=23)