# Can the Democrats win the Alabama senate special election in December? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504 "2017-08-13T00:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/561 "2017-11-13T01:22:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is just silly semantics. Most people would take that as “support him in the election”, i.e. vote for him. As backwards as you might think people in Alabama might be, they are not actually in favor of child molestation in any great numbers. I could believe 10-15% don’t think “14” is a child. It was in Alabama I first heard gems like “Old enough to bleed/Old enough to breed” and “If there’s grass on the course, play ball!” So I can imagine as many as 15% feeling like a single man pursuing 14-16 year old girls was doing nothing wrong, and in fact was being “alpha” in an admirable way. The rest I think probably feel sorry for him because he’s been railroaded by the Fake News Machine. And there’s certainly a lot of overlap in the two groups. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/562 "2017-11-13T01:29:52Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > This explanation explains why it wouldn’t change their opinions. **But 29% said that the accusations made them MORE LIKELY to vote for him.** As in, because he was accused of molesting a 14 year old they are MORE LIKELY to vote for him as a result. > _ **SNIP** _ Bolding is mine. Again I’m guessing, but for some of those folks it could simply be they see this as an attack orchestrated by the Hillary/George Soros/Michael Moore/Muslim-loving “main stream media” in an effort to destroy all that is good and holy about the USA by bringing down a God-fearing patriot like Judge Moore. It’s all a plot by the devil-worshiping liberals, don’t you get it? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/563 "2017-11-13T01:31:24Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Totally agree with this. It’s a cultural characteristic in the South, the two-facedness. The whole, “Bless your heart!” thing. Not saying it only happens in the South, but it really does seem to be part of the southern identity. As a Southerner, I can attest to the difference between the public morality that Southerners wear on their sleeves and the private “morality” that takes place when they think nobody’s gonna find out. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/564 "2017-11-13T01:33:21Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Bolding is mine. > > Again I’m guessing, but for some of those folks it could simply be they see this as an attack orchestrated by the Hillary/George Soros/Michael Moore/Muslim-loving “main stream media” in an effort to destroy all that is good and holy about the USA by bringing down a God-fearing patriot like Judge Moore. > > It’s all a plot by the devil-worshiping liberals, don’t you get it? They don’t really believe in God the way that they will tell you they do. What Southerners truly believe in is their identity. It’s their culture and their identity that has been attacked, and they will defend it like a motherfucker. The same way they’ve been defending it since they first realized that they were Southerners, unique and different from the rest of the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/565 "2017-11-13T01:42:52Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is just silly semantics. Most people would take that as “support him in the election”, i.e. vote for him. As backwards as you might think people in Alabama might be, they are not actually in favor of child molestation in any great numbers. I never claimed that they favored child molestation, just that for some reason that having been accused of child molestation makes a candidate more attractive to 29% of them. Whatever that reason is gets me back to my original statement that I will stick with my New York values instead. > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Bolding is mine. > > Again I’m guessing, but for some of those folks it could simply be they see this as an attack orchestrated by the Hillary/George Soros/Michael Moore/Muslim-loving “main stream media” in an effort to destroy all that is good and holy about the USA by bringing down a God-fearing patriot like Judge Moore. > > It’s all a plot by the devil-worshiping liberals, don’t you get it? I get that. I’m sure some of the attacks on Bill Clinton was political as well. Doesn’t mean that the accusations made me more likely to support him. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/566 "2017-11-13T01:55:30Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > They don’t really believe in God the way that they will tell you they do. What Southerners truly believe in is their identity. It’s their culture and their identity that has been attacked, and they will defend it like a motherfucker. The same way they’ve been defending it since they first realized that they were Southerners, unique and different from the rest of the Union. I understand why you say what you do but I don’t see much point in making generalizations about Southerners. Not all white folks in the South are racists and not all Christians are hypocrites. I come from a family with a long history in the South who are very sincere in their Christian beliefs and are good people. Culture and identity are important to them but none of them have ever been defenders of the Confederacy and find Roy Moore disgusting. They probably wouldn’t vote for Jones if they lived in Alabama but they would be even less likely to vote for Moore. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/567 "2017-11-13T02:05:24Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > …I get that. I’m sure some of the attacks on Bill Clinton was political as well. Doesn’t mean that the accusations made me more likely to support him. My “don’t you get it” was meant rhetorically, not at you specifically. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/568 "2017-11-13T02:35:36Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I think I’ll stick with my New York values, if [this](http://winwithjmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Alabama-Senate-Executive-Summary-General-Election-Poll-2.pdf) is what the alternative is: > > _Given the allegations that have come out about Roy Moore’s alleged sexual misconduct against four > underage women, are you more or less likely to support him as a result of these allegations? > More Likely 29% > Less Likely 38% > No Difference 33%_ > > Yes, molesting underage girls is seen as a positive by nearly one out of three Alabamans. Buck Godot’s law of political opinion polling: No matter what the question a significant portion of those polled will answer in such a way as to indicate maximum support for their chosen party and maximum disdain for those on the other side. So when I see a poll like this I read it as 29% of respondents didn’t actually care what the question was. It could have been “should all the Democrats in the senate be lined up and shot for treason” and it would have gotten similar support. Note the Dems are not immune to this law, although usually the percentages are smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/569 "2017-11-13T10:16:28Z")
[Here](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/10/erick-erickson-dont-blame-roy-moore-voters-for-sticking-with-him.html) is what all you GOP critics are looking for: > [@](#): > > Y’all, I think the facts of the case as presented by the Washington Post are pretty damning. If I were a voter in Alabama, I would probably have to sit it out. But there are a lot of voters who are really damn tired of the culture war and they just want to be left alone. But the left won’t leave them alone. They’re coming for their churches’ tax exempt status. They are coming to force them to either get on board the secular progressive agenda or go into hiding. They are coming for their kids and their guns as well. > > So now you are telling them they are really awful, bad people if they stick with Roy Moore instead of allowing into office a man who will side with the people who are out to get them? > > I suspect they’ll take your aspersions and hate. They already think you hate them. And because the other side will accept nothing less than the destruction of their way of life, even if they want to walk away from Roy Moore they can’t. Because the other side is bent on their destruction and they think, rightly, that Roy Moore is the only one standing with them. > > So we have the luxury of turning our nose up at it. And we can say character counts. But they believe character and morals count too and while they might find Moore’s actions reprehensible, they know the other side won’t be happy until their kids are brainwashed into thinking boys can be girls, a baby’s brains can be harvested with taxpayer subsides, and guns should be made extinct. [movie announcer voice] to save these Alabamans, he’s going to have to become… A Child Molester! [/movie announcer voice] ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/570 "2017-11-13T13:38:14Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > [Here](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/10/erick-erickson-dont-blame-roy-moore-voters-for-sticking-with-him.html) is what all you GOP critics are looking for: > [movie announcer voice] to save these Alabamans, he’s going to have to become… A Child Molester! [/movie announcer voice] This is just amazing. > [@](#): > > People are being harassed for refusing to cheer on men with mental illness who think they are women and the left thinks people in Alabama should have to let men use the ladies’ bathroom. Men with mental illness. Just amazing. We’re not asking for men to use the ladies’ rooms, just transgender women. With guys like Moore on the prowl, I think the ladies have a lot more to fear from horndog men than from TG women. The right wing lives in alternate reality. There is no arguing with them, we just need to outvote them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/571 "2017-11-13T14:25:47Z")
Some possibly minor points I would like to see cleared up. His alleged “victims”? Were they white? Was he on familiar terms with the family, like, say, a member of their church? How well did he know them, and under what circumstances? He met the youngest at court, when the Mom was there for a custody hearing. That’s where he offered to “keep an eye” on the daughter while the Mom was in court. How very thoughtful, I suppose, but why would the Mom prefer not to take her daughter in with her? Did she already know Mr. Moore in his official capacity as an Asst DA? Would this have been a reason to trust Mr. Moore, or a reason to be concerned, even fearful, about offending him? Was he in a relationship of power relative to her, real or implied? Surely he wasn’t some total stranger, who simply walked up and made the offer? How about the other parents? Did Mr Moore have some social contacts with them previous to his seeking their approval and permission? Or were their contacts more of an official interaction? Had they some legal issues, potential or otherwise? That first Mom, in court. Was her first reaction “Oh, look, its that nice young Mr Moore, with the DA’s office, offering to watch my child while I’m in court, how very thoughtful!” Or was it tinged with concern that she did not want to annoy someone who could make trouble for her? This whole “asking permission” thing creeps me right the fuck out. I suppose we are expected to think of it as courtly, old-fashioned, even chivalrous. But I am not a very nice person, I have suspicions that arise unbidden. Like maybe he expected some wise maternal advice to be offered. Something along the lines of “Just be _nice_ to him, honey…” Might they be part of the “white trash”, trailer park, petty criminal class? Is that how he knows them? Kind of people who might not have been comfortable telling Mr Friendly Asst DA to bugger off. No doubt many people in the community would have been unimpressed with Mr Moores official standing, would have had no qualms about refusing such a creepy…ah…“proposition”. Others would not, of course. Did he ask permission to date the banker’s daughter? President of the local Lion’s Club, Better Business Bureau? Sort of people who outrank an Asst DA, social class-wise? Or the sort of people who most definitely did not. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/572 "2017-11-13T17:05:24Z")
McConnell [has called for Moore](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/mitch-mcconnell-roy-moore/index.html) to step aside. From a practical standpoint, what happens if Moore is out (or not) with regard to the election? I can’t seem to figure out if there is any possibility that Jones actually takes this seat. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/573 "2017-11-13T17:09:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > McConnell [has called for Moore](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/mitch-mcconnell-roy-moore/index.html) to step aside. From a practical standpoint, what happens if Moore is out (or not) with regard to the election? I can’t seem to figure out if there is any possibility that Jones actually takes this seat. The only possibility is if Jones wins the election. That’s his only real path. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/574 "2017-11-13T17:11:44Z")
That is, actually, a major sort of step, away from “If it’s true” towards “I believe it is”. Someone ought to commend him for his political courage and moral indignation. Someone really should. I would, but I have to feed the goldfish. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/575 "2017-11-13T17:17:32Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > McConnell [has called for Moore](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/mitch-mcconnell-roy-moore/index.html) to step aside. From a practical standpoint, what happens if Moore is out (or not) with regard to the election? I can’t seem to figure out if there is any possibility that Jones actually takes this seat. It’s too late to change the ballot. Even if Moore quit campaigning and urged his followers to write in a Republican who likes girls his own age, he’d still be on the ballot (and quite a few of his followers would flip the finger to the “RINOs” by voting for him anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/576 "2017-11-13T17:18:48Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > As backwards as you might think people in Alabama might be, they are not actually in favor of child molestation in any great numbers. I would have thought so too, but a linked op-ed in a post by **Icarus** in the Pit thread on Sean Hannity suggests otherwise: > [@Jesus Christ Sean Hannity.........](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-sean-hannity/801190/97): > > **Icarus** over in the concurrent Sean Hannity thread linked to this eye-opening and jaw-dropping op-ed describing how in some fundamentalist Christian cultures, mid-teen girl/adult man pairings are seen as not only “no big deal” but even **desirable** : > > > [@Jesus Christ Sean Hannity.........](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-sean-hannity/801190/97): > > > > Interesting opinion piece in the LA Times last weekend. > > > > [http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brightbill-roy-moore-evangelical-culture-20171110-story.html](http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brightbill-roy-moore-evangelical-culture-20171110-story.html) > > From the link: > > > [@](#): > > > > In that world, which Moore travels in and I grew up in, 14-year-old girls courting adult men isn’t uncommon. > > > > I use the phrase “14-year-old girls courting adult men,” rather than “adult men courting 14-year-old girls,” for a reason: Evangelicals routinely frame these relationships in those terms. That’s how I was introduced to these relationships as a home-schooled teenager in the 1990s, and it’s the language that my friends and I would use to discuss girls we knew who were in parent-sanctioned relationships with older men. […] > > > > “Duck Dynasty” star Phil Robertson advocated for adult men to marry 15- and 16-year-old girls and deemed age 20 too old because “you wait until they get to be 20 years old, the only picking that’s going to take place is your pocket.” Home-school leader Kevin Swanson, whose 2015 convention was attended by several Republican presidential candidates, defended Robertson on his radio show after the story broke. Advocating for child marriage hasn’t slowed down Robertson’s career. He just got a new show on the conservative digital network CRTV. […] > > > > Much of the sexual abuse that takes place in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, or IFB, churches involves adult men targeting 14- to 16-year-old girls. If caught, the teenage victim may be forced to repent the “sin” of having seduced an adult man. Former IFB megachurch pastor Jack Schaap argued that he should be released from prison after being convicted of molesting a 16-year-old girl, asserting that the “aggressiveness” of his victim “inhibited [his] impulse control.” In the wake of the Schaap case, numerous other stories emerged of sexual abuse cover-ups involving teenage girls at IFB churches. In another high-profile case, pregnant 15-year-old Tina Anderson, who was raped by a church deacon twice her age, was forced to confess her “sin” to the congregation. > > :eek: :eek: :eek: For a non-negligible number of Alabamians, apparently, child molestation in the form of “parent-sanctioned” teenage girl/adult man relationships **is** something they’re in favor of. By their standards, Moore’s main error in this situation was simply not getting the girl’s father’s permission before molesting her. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/577 "2017-11-13T17:22:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I would have thought so too, but a linked op-ed in a post by **Icarus** in the Pit thread on Sean Hannity suggests otherwise: > > For a non-negligible number of Alabamians, apparently, child molestation in the form of “parent-sanctioned” teenage girl/adult man relationships **is** something they’re in favor of. By their standards, Moore’s main error in this situation was simply not getting the girl’s father’s permission before molesting her. So am I to understand that in Alabama, finger-banging a 14-year-old is just considered a first date? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/578 "2017-11-13T17:34:23Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So am I to understand that in Alabama, finger-banging a 14-year-old is just considered a first date? Second, I thought? > [@](#): > > On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/579 "2017-11-13T17:40:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I would have thought so too, but a linked op-ed in a post by **Icarus** in the Pit thread on Sean Hannity suggests otherwise: > > For a non-negligible number of Alabamians, apparently, child molestation in the form of “parent-sanctioned” teenage girl/adult man relationships **is** something they’re in favor of. By their standards, Moore’s main error in this situation was simply not getting the girl’s father’s permission before molesting her. Do people reading such things still turn around and demand to know why these women would have waited so long to speak out? If these things are true, their entire community and culture say if things go badly it’s their fault, but that just being sexed up by an older man is actually things going very well indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/580 "2017-11-13T17:41:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Someone ought to commend him for his political courage and moral indignation. He has the “political courage and moral indignation” to read 1)the polls and/or 2)rumblings that Moore shoes might be dropping soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=30)