# Can the Democrats win the Alabama senate special election in December? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504 "2017-08-13T00:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/981 "2017-12-11T19:30:09Z")
The \*gerrymandered \*state legislatures, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/982 "2017-12-11T19:41:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Moore is correct that the 14th Amendment was ratified only at gunpoint. Yeah, their _own_ guns. Nobody pointed a gun at them and said, “you must try to secede, or I shoot.” They did that themselves. After their rebellion was defeated, but before their full rights as states in the Union were restored, Constitutional amendments they didn’t like were ratified by the states that stayed. Sucks to be them, but they did it to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/983 "2017-12-11T20:09:17Z")
Wasn’t ratification of those amendments one of the conditions for them to be restored? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/984 "2017-12-11T20:12:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wasn’t ratification of those amendments one of the conditions for them to be restored? Well, after they tried some shenanigans, yes. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/985 "2017-12-11T20:16:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wasn’t ratification of those amendments one of the conditions for them to be restored? So, if I’m reading between the lines, if we unratify the amendments, we also reseceed the confederate states? Damn, that’s a tough call on which way to lean. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/986 "2017-12-11T20:26:07Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > So, if I’m reading between the lines, if we unratify the amendments, we also reseceed the confederate states? Damn, that’s a tough call on which way to lean. No. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled in the 19th Century that secession was illegal in the first place. However, keep in mind that if the 12th Amendment is repealed, then Hillary Clinton becomes the Vice-President, since she had the second-most electoral votes. Speaking of the Constitution, here’s something to consider: the Senate has the final say over the result of the Alabama Senate election. If the vote is close enough but for Moore, could enough Republican Senators who don’t want Moore team up with the Democrats to force as many recounts as it takes to get one where Jones ends up ahead, and then declare that the result? There is precedent for this; see Frank McCloskey’s 1984 House election. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/987 "2017-12-11T20:32:09Z")
The GOP has started up the Fake news machine again: > **[PolitiFact - No, Roy Moore accuser didn't admit she forged his signature in...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/08/blog-posting/no-roy-moore-accuser-didnt-tamper-or-forge-yearboo/)** > > A conspiracy-minded website attempted to cast doubt on evidence presented by one of eight women who accused Roy Moore of > **[PolitiFact - Fake news about Washington Post and Roy Moore accuser stems from...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/11/evening-world/fake-news-about-washington-post-and-roy-moore-accu/)** > > A fake news story said a Washington Post reporter offered a woman money if she would accuse Alabama U.S. Senate candidat > **[PolitiFact - Fake news: No, a Roy Moore accuser was not arrested for lying](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/dec/11/blog-posting/fake-news-no-roy-moore-accuser-was-not-arrested-ly/)** > > Many supporters of Alabama Republican Roy Moore say they don’t believe accounts of his sexual advances on underage girls ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/988 "2017-12-11T21:05:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Cite? > > I can think of perfectly legitimate reasons why she would have wanted to add those notations recently. If so, sure, she really should have used a Post-It. But having not done so just tells me that she is an ordinary person, and not someone steeped in the world of contemporary politics, where people on the right are liable to look through your window and critique your kitchen counters. Sorry, it’s not a forgery then. It’s an annotation. Even though this “annotation” was presented as original. I might have thought that someone operating in good faith would have admitted they themselves “annotated” the original; it’s usually good practice to admit such things when presenting an original document. This lady had consulted a lawyer, a very well paid lawyer at that. None of the annotation stuff came out at the press conference, or any of the(I assume) dozens of communications with the press soon afterwards. I eagerly await the results of any independent examination; an examination that could have very easily taken place by now. I seem to be one of the very few on here calling for an independent analysis. I think we all know why. If someone is holding evidence back they are usually doing so for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/989 "2017-12-11T21:18:14Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Even though this “annotation” was presented as original. Specifically the annotation, or just as a general reference to the whole? Because if the latter, I’m inclined to think that they thought the difference between the annotations and the rest of the writing was so starkly obvious that they didn’t see a need to mention it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/990 "2017-12-11T21:45:02Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I eagerly await the results of any independent examination; an examination that could have very easily taken place by now. I seem to be one of the very few on here calling for an independent analysis. I think we all know why. If someone is holding evidence back they are usually doing so for a reason. So you tell us. If this independent examination concludes that Moore authored that yearbook message, will you join us condeming the man? Or will you move goalposts so you can continue to attack his accusers? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/991 "2017-12-11T21:58:33Z")
The cynical side of me thinks that the Fox News poll showing Jones up by 10 pints is just a ploy to dampen the Democratic vote. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/992 "2017-12-11T22:03:21Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The cynical side of me thinks that the Fox News poll showing Jones up by 10 pints is just a ploy to dampen the Democratic vote. It’s funny, but my cynical side thought the exact opposite (that they’re trying to get out shaky Republicans who might otherwise just sit it out) - the reasoning being that if you’re a Democrat in Alabama, you are never going to believe you have a statewide election in the bag until the election’s over, regardless of what the polls say. The election will be won or lost on turnout, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/993 "2017-12-11T22:13:34Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Sorry, it’s not a forgery then. It’s an annotation. Even though this “annotation” was presented as original. I might have thought that someone operating in good faith would have admitted they themselves “annotated” the original; it’s usually good practice to admit such things when presenting an original document. This lady had consulted a lawyer, a very well paid lawyer at that. None of the annotation stuff came out at the press conference, or any of the(I assume) dozens of communications with the press soon afterwards. > > I eagerly await the results of any independent examination; an examination that could have very easily taken place by now. I seem to be one of the very few on here calling for an independent analysis. I think we all know why. If someone is holding evidence back they are usually doing so for a reason. Look, if the whole case rested on this one point, sure. But there have been mutiple accussers and Moore even admitted that he dated young girls “with the permission of their mothers”. "Moore has also given contradictory statements on whether he knows his accusers. On November 10, Moore acknowledged knowing and remembering Debbie Wesson Gibson and Gloria Thacker Deason, but said although he could cannot remember “specific dates” between him and Gibson, “If we did go out on dates then we did.” He said that he did not “remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother.” However on November 27 and 29, Moore declared, “I do not know any of these women”, “did not date any of these women and have not engaged in any sexual misconduct with anyone.” There’s alsoLeigh Corfman, who was only 14, several others and many eyewitness accoutns that Moore was dating underaged girls. Snopes has weighed in: > **[FACT CHECK: Did One of Roy Moore's Accusers 'Forge' Yearbook Evidence Against...](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/moore-accuser-yearbook/)** > > Roy Moore accuser Beverly Young Nelson annotated Moore's 1977 signature and inscription in her high school yearbook, but she didn't "forge" his writing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/994 "2017-12-11T22:23:09Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The cynical side of me thinks that the Fox News poll showing Jones up by 10 pints is just a ploy to dampen the Democratic vote. You need to play multi-dimensional chess to figure this stuff out. FOX doesn’t really want Moore to win because it would be bad for Democrats, so you they are trying to discourage those borderline voters who might be thinking about voting for him. Why bother what with all the cold weather and he’s gonna lose anyway. Let’s go Christmas shopping instead!! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/995 "2017-12-11T22:39:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Moore is correct that the 14th Amendment was ratified only at gunpoint. But that’s just one more illustration of what’s wrong with the South: They were only capable of being decent human beings when they were forced into it. Ahem: the WHITE south, and even then, not all of the white south. But yeah, the white southerners in charge were scum of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/996 "2017-12-11T22:48:14Z")
Setting aside Moore’s fundamental unfitness for the job based on his casual disregard for the rule of law, to get banished from the local mall on the basis of trolling for kids had to take some doing, even 40 years ago. That it happened is a verifiable fact. How much more does one need to make a determination of someone’s character? Whoops! Missed your post, **The Tooth**! (But it probably bears mentioning more than once, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/997 "2017-12-11T22:55:39Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Setting aside Moore’s fundamental unfitness for the job based on his casual disregard for the rule of law, to get banished from the local mall on the basis of trolling for kids had to take some doing, even 40 years ago. That it happened is a verifiable fact. > > How much more does one need to make a determination of someone’s character? > > Whoops! Missed your post, **The Tooth**! > > (But it probably bears mentioning more than once, anyway.) If Moore had admitted his guilt, apologized and explained that he gave up such behavior decades ago, I think the could make the ethics charges almost disappear. What is his most recent incident in that department-- it is decades ago, right? He chose not to do that, though. But we’re still left with, as you say, someone who is fundamentally unfit for the job based on his casual disregard for the rule of law. Or to use the more technical term: a complete whack job. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/998 "2017-12-11T23:17:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If Moore had admitted his guilt, apologized and explained that he gave up such behavior decades ago, I think the could make the ethics charges almost disappear. What is his most recent incident in that department-- it is decades ago, right? He chose not to do that, though. But we’re still left with, as you say, someone who is fundamentally unfit for the job **based on his casual disregard for the rule of law**. Or to use the more technical term: a complete whack job. I should have been clear, my mention of his disregard for the rule of law had to do with his ignoring a judge’s order to have his 10 Commandments monument removed, and his order to probate judges to disregard federal court rulings on the ban of same sex marriage. In my mind, that makes him unfit as a threshold issue. Also, he’s a birther. As for his proclivity for pedophilia, I’m not sure an apology quite covers behavior as extensive as Moore’s. This is a man with a problem, even if it occurred decades ago. You probably wouldn’t want to peruse his browser history. I can certain go with your more technical term: A complete whack job, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/999 "2017-12-11T23:32:08Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I should have been clear, my mention of his disregard for the rule of law had to do with his ignoring a judge’s order to have his 10 Commandments monument removed, and his order to probate judges to disregard federal court rulings on the ban of same sex marriage. In my mind, that makes him unfit as a threshold issue. Also, he’s a birther. Yes, that’s exactly how I understood it. > [@](#): > > As for his proclivity for pedophilia, I’m not sure an apology quite covers behavior as extensive as Moore’s. This is a man with a problem, even if it occurred decades ago. You probably wouldn’t want to peruse his browser history. All his interactions with teens were 30 - 40 years ago. If there are more recent allegations, they should be put on the table. I have no idea what is in his browser history-- I’m just saying he could have handled the accusations a lot better and maybe gotten a pass from a lot of folks since he has not continued that pattern of behavior. People can change. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504/1000 "2017-12-11T23:35:56Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The cynical side of me thinks that the Fox News poll showing Jones up by 10 pints is just a ploy to dampen the Democratic vote. What? No, that’s what you would do if you were trying to dampen the \*\*\*GOP \*\*\*vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-democrats-win-the-alabama-senate-special-election-in-december/793504.md?page=51)