# Can the Federal Government issue scrip to bypass the debt ceiling? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143 "2013-01-14T06:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/61 "2013-01-15T23:26:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If the government owes me money, then they cannot pass any legislation that says they don’t no matter whether I accept scrip or not. They owe me the money, and the Constitution says that that debt cannot be questioned. Sure they can. The 14th Amendment regards actual debt issued in exchange for money (T-bills, basically). The “debt” created by legislation like the SS act isn’t the same thing. The gov’t can change the laws requiring payment on such programs (see Flemming v Nestor) > [@](#): > > I don’t know what this means. Everyone who is owed money by the federal government, is owed because of the federal budget. No. Some people have contracts that says the gov’t agrees to pay them as well as money allocated in the federal budget. The gov’t can change the federal budget, but they can’t nullify contracts. > [@](#): > > And Obama is floating trial balloons of stupid, un-Constitutional ideas. Errr…you realize “Obama” in these posts is purely hypothetical, right? The actual Obama (or his Administration) haven’t mentioned anything about this scheme, and given that they’ve squashed other similar ideas for avoiding the debt ceiling (platinum coin, selling gold reserves) if this idea actually generated enough noise in the press to come to their attention, I’d imagine they’d say they weren’t going to issue scrip either (even though its neither unconstitutional nor stupid). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/62 "2013-01-16T00:28:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And Obama is floating trial balloons of stupid, un-Constitutional ideas. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/63 "2013-01-16T01:48:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The government says they can’t pay the full $1000, so they offer me scrip instead. I refuse, because I can’t redeem the scrip for the full $1000. This has no effect on the debt - the government owes me the money because they have contractually obligated themselves to pay me $1000 in return for treating the patient. They cannot pass a law saying, “Sorry, we have decided to pay you $800 instead”. That would be questioning the legal debt, and that violates the Constitution. (It also violates the prohibition on [ex post facto](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Ex+Post+Facto+Laws) laws.) Work performed for the government is not a debt, it is an obligation. Obligations are contractual matters in which the government satisfies by expending funds. Obligations are not debts within the meaning of the 14th Amendment; the debts referred to by that amendment are the borrowing of funds on the credit of the United States. The government routinely deobligates funds by modifying or cancelling contracts, and the 14th Amendment has jack-all to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/64 "2013-01-16T18:19:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Work performed for the government is not a debt, it is an obligation. Obligations are contractual matters in which the government satisfies by expending funds. Obligations are not debts within the meaning of the 14th Amendment; the debts referred to by that amendment are the borrowing of funds on the credit of the United States. > > The government routinely deobligates funds by modifying or cancelling contracts, and the 14th Amendment has jack-all to do with it. This post should be a sticky. Absolutely, 100% correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/65 "2013-01-16T18:21:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Name one. The “Fourteenth Amendment” solution of declaring that the President can simply ignore the debt ceiling. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/66 "2013-01-16T23:01:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The “Fourteenth Amendment” solution of declaring that the President can simply ignore the debt ceiling. Now show where the Obama Administration suggested that as an option. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/67 "2013-01-17T03:18:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The government routinely deobligates funds by modifying or cancelling contracts, and the 14th Amendment has jack-all to do with it. I agree that the 14th Amendment is not implicated, but if the government cancels the contract after work has been performed, it’s going to get sued for breach of contract. Just like if it tries to pay someone in scrip for work already performed, it’s probably going to get sued for breach of contract. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143/68 "2013-01-17T04:16:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Just like if it tries to pay someone in scrip for work already performed, it’s probably going to get sued for breach of contract. As I pointed out, it is illegal in the US to pay someone in scrip [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-federal-government-issue-scrip-to-bypass-the-debt-ceiling/647143.md?page=3)