# Can the guards at Area 51 really shoot to kill **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330 "2011-01-04T07:42:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/21 "2011-01-04T14:56:24Z")
Why the concern for the intruders well-being? As mentioned, there are multiple levels of security and warning. If someone perisits in attempting to enter secured areas, there is no-one to blame but themselves. Off the bastard, bury him deep, and keep on keeping on. The only possible reason to take him alive is to find out who he works for. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/22 "2011-01-04T15:15:01Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > I guess this line of thinking is what got me to wondering. At a base it seems like there would be no shortage of men to physically restrain an intruder long before they got close enough to snap a few pics. For starters, Area 51 isn’t a base like Fort Bragg where tens of thousands of soldiers reside; it’s a testing facility, staffed pretty much only by the people who are conducting the tests and the security personnel who keep the looky-loo’s out. Even if it were housing a couple of divisions of soldiers, those soldiers would not all be on security detail; they’d be off doing other soldier things, like marching, eating, polishing their guns, making lewd videos (CVN personnel only) or training the dogs to hide bees in their mouths. If your assigned mission is to prevent unauthorized access to restricted areas, and the importance of success is such that you are authorized to use deadly force without having been threatened with same, I don’t believe your official list of resources will include calling upon random soldiers who happen to be passing by and aren’t particularly familiar with your team’s mission or tactics. Yes, it would be nice to question intruders, but not at the expense of failing your primary mission (preventing access). If the intruder has clearly been disabled and prevented from gaining access, you certainly don’t walk over and put a final round into his skull, but before he’s been disabled, it doesn’t make sense to go easy on him and risk having him gain access. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/23 "2011-01-04T15:21:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Why the concern for the intruders well-being? As mentioned, there are multiple levels of security and warning. If someone perisits in attempting to enter secured areas, there is no-one to blame but themselves. Off the bastard, bury him deep, and keep on keeping on. The only possible reason to take him alive is to find out who he works for. I’m guessing that the breakdown of intruders at Area 51 is something like 1 “serious” spy for every 2,000 UFO nuts/stoned teenagers. It’s probably more fun for the guards to surround a group of stoned teenagers with Humvees, point guns at their heads, throw them on the ground, yell at them insanely, etc until they shit themselves and then let them go than to actually shoot them in the head. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/24 "2011-01-04T16:26:23Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > I guess this line of thinking is what got me to wondering. At a base it seems like there would be no shortage of men to physically restrain an intruder long before they got close enough to snap a few pics. Shooting seems like overkill. For example, it seems that if someone was trying to take pics of a prototype there would be a desire to question them to see who they were working for rather than just offing them. Funniest thing I ever saw waiting to get onto the Norfolk Operations Base in VA was some guy who was arguing with the gate guard, and finally made a break for it to run in… a small unit of marines out for PT were jogging by and dogpiled on the guy before he got more than about 20 feet inside the gate. [This was back in about 88 or 89, he was some sort of save the whales dude, back then was some sort of random protesting going on about the damage active sonar did to whales] Certainly the gate guards could have shot him, but the ignominy of being dogpiled by sweaty marines was just hysterically funny to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/25 "2011-01-04T16:29:41Z")
As someone who guarded, and supervised guards, at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, I can attest that “deadly force authorized” is real. At least in the USAF, these signs are posted in Restricted Areas, which are permanent or temporary areas setup to protect assets labeled Priority Resources. These can be anything from a communications building to a C-5A aircraft. Like others mentioned, for fixed resources such as a building, there are typically multiple layers of physical barriers such as fencing and then the building exterior. But for some assets, like a parked aircraft or missile launch pad, the perimeter fence or ropes may be the only barrier before actually encountering the asset itself. In those cases, I have no doubt that, absent a quick and reliable alternative, deadly force would be used against someone breaching the exterior fence - that’s what we trained them to do. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/26 "2011-01-04T17:18:03Z")
I remember a joke from long ago abou English policemen: “Stop!.. or I shall yell ‘Stop’ again!” ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/27 "2011-01-04T17:18:53Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Agreed. Whenever we were on guard duty, there never was any talk of “warning shots” or “shoot to wound”. I see the poster above me beat me to the punch (I was in the Marines). I believe we might discuss different situations here. If I’m guarding a road block on a road leading to a military facility (around which there’s a second perimeter with machine gun nests which are manned at any kind of alert for instance), and there’s a cilivian walking up to it along the road, surely you wouldn’t instantly open fire. You would order the person to stop and then make sure the person knows you will fire if he does not stop, but keeps walking. To immediately shoot to kill that person, do you really mean that’s what you supposed to do according to Marine standards of procedure? Sounds a little bit “gung-ho” to me. If this person come running at you with his hand inside his jacket or something, naturally you will stop him without the warnings etc, but that is not the typical encounter at a road block or fence or whatever we are guarding. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/28 "2011-01-04T17:30:45Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > You would order the person to stop and then make sure the person knows you will fire if he does not stop, but keeps walking. To immediately shoot to kill that person, do you really mean that’s what you supposed to do according to Marine standards of procedure? Sounds a little bit “gung-ho” to me. Yes, obviously. But if you are going to actually shoot after the warning, you shoot to disable (often killing). You don’t fire warning shots or try to shoot them in the hand hoping to disable them. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/29 "2011-01-04T17:54:19Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > I remember a joke from long ago abou English policemen: > “Stop!.. or I shall yell ‘Stop’ again!” I thought English Bobbies carried whistles. Hence the warning, “Stop, or I shall toot!” 😃 dnr ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/30 "2011-01-04T17:55:11Z")
I never said anything about shooting them in the arm. One shot in the air over their head - just to make sure they heard you, as well as to alert the rest of the base - and then start aiming shots roughly toward the knees area. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/31 "2011-01-04T17:55:58Z")
Although I haven’t been to Area 51, I’ve been to a number of secure test facilities. While all are generally well-guarded, the guards are mostly contractors. At multi-service installations or non-military installations that house nuclear facilities like EBR-2 the guards are frequently provide via the Department of Energy (versus Department of Defense for military bases). As pointed out, Area 51 is part of the Nevada Test Range and is largely open space. Any intruder would be spotted by surveillance long before they could approach the facilities area, and unless they displayed lethal force would probably simply be surrounded, detained, and released or prosecuted for trespassing as appropriate. The “Use of deadly force is authorized” is mostly just CYA in case someone does get tagged for being incredibly stupid. Paralleling **Kiber** ’s experience, the only time I’ve actually seen a facility guarded by military personnel who pointed weapons if not directly at me at least in my general direction was in a facility where they were dismantling ICBM reentry vehicles. I have no doubt they had heavier backup out of sight but on call as well. Nuclear security is generally taken very seriously, and the occasional slip-up is a probably career-ender right up to the flag level. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/32 "2011-01-04T18:09:47Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > I believe we might discuss different situations here. If I’m guarding a road block on a road leading to a military facility (around which there’s a second perimeter with machine gun nests which are manned at any kind of alert for instance), and there’s a cilivian walking up to it along the road, surely you wouldn’t instantly open fire. You would order the person to stop and then make sure the person knows you will fire if he does not stop, but keeps walking. To immediately shoot to kill that person, do you really mean that’s what you supposed to do according to Marine standards of procedure? Sounds a little bit “gung-ho” to me. If this person come running at you with his hand inside his jacket or something, naturally you will stop him without the warnings etc, but that is not the typical encounter at a road block or fence or whatever we are guarding. From what I remember from the Rules of Engagement when I was in Kuwait for guard was something along the lines of shout, show, shoot. So you would call out a warning to stop, show your intent to use lethal force (eg rack the bolt on your M16 to chamber a round), then shoot. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/33 "2011-01-04T18:22:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I never said anything about shooting them in the arm. One shot in the air over their head - just to make sure they heard you, as well as to alert the rest of the base - and then start aiming shots roughly toward the knees area. And we are saying that if you start your own military, you can use those as your rules. But in DoD that isn’t the way it is. There are no warning shots, and no knee shots. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/34 "2011-01-04T18:27:36Z")
Deadly force is authorized to protect all the alien bodies collected there. Think of what would happen if the secret got out. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/35 "2011-01-04T23:15:00Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Any action which entails a high likelihood of fatality or serious bodily harm is considered [“deadly force”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force) where rules of engagement are concerned. Shooting at a suspect’s legs would be considered deadly force. Similarly, the [PIT maneuver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver) used by police to terminate car chases is considered “deadly force” because of the high likelihood of a crash that may seriously injure the occupants of the suspect vehicle; consistent with police rules of engagement, the PIT is typically only authorized in situations where the car chase is deemed to be endangering the public. > > In the United States I believe civilian police are trained to only fire their guns so as to kill; I don’t believe their rules of engagement allow for warning shots or for shooting to injure (e.g. shooting at the legs). Along those lines, I would be very surprised if the rules of engagement for military security personnel allowed them to use their guns in any way other than shooting to kill. > [@JerseyMarine2092](#): > > From what I remember from the Rules of Engagement when I was in Kuwait for guard was something along the lines of shout, show, shoot. So you would call out a warning to stop, show your intent to use lethal force (eg rack the bolt on your M16 to chamber a round), then shoot. Sorry its now [shout, show, shove, shoot, shoot](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6052/is_2008_April/ai_n27912216/). Shout a warning, Show weapon/intent, shove the person back, shoot a warning shot, shoot to kill. If its a vehicle checkpoint then its shout, show, shoot, shoot, shoot. The last three are for warning shot, shoot the engine block, shoot the driver. Nothing in the escalation of force says you can’t jump right to deadly force if warranted. But warning shots are certainly part of the rules of engagement (in general terms of course ROE changes from place to place, mission to mission. I would never mention anything more specific or anything that can’t be easily found on the internet). As a part time soldier and full time cop warning shots are against my religion. I was always taught that you own that bullet once it leaves the barrel. If you are shooting over someones head you have no control over where it will land or who it will land in. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/36 "2011-01-05T00:14:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Deadly force is authorized to protect all the alien bodies collected there. Think of what would happen if the secret got out. Again. I’m more concerned about those cell phone towers which the NSA use to beam messages directly into your brain. (And I ran out of tin foil yesterday…) ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/37 "2011-01-05T01:20:11Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Guards at any military base are authorized to shoot to kill any intruder who refuses to stop. That’s why they carry guns, duh. Since when? From my reading of various history books, it seems that 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 80 years ago, virtually any citizen could visit virtually any military base/fort any time he wanted to, at will, and the civilian could wear his gun too. When did the military stop letting civilians enter bases at will ? When were civilians first prohibited from bringing in a gun? When were guards first allowed to shoot civilians/intruders entering an army fort/base? ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/38 "2011-01-05T01:35:38Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > From my reading of various history books, it seems that 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 80 years ago, virtually any citizen could visit virtually any military base/fort any time he wanted to, at will, and the civilian could wear his gun too. > > When did the military stop letting civilians enter bases at will? Umm…what? That’s a rather extraordinary claim. Under what circumstances would any random citizen be welcome in a secure military facility, at any time in history? Could a 13th-century peasant freely visit the Tower of London? ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/39 "2011-01-05T03:14:24Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Since when? > > From my reading of various history books, it seems that 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 80 years ago, virtually any citizen could visit virtually any military base/fort any time he wanted to, at will, and the civilian could wear his gun too. > > When did the military stop letting civilians enter bases at will ? > > When were civilians first prohibited from bringing in a gun? > > When were guards first allowed to shoot civilians/intruders entering an army fort/base? I’ve never heard of this and would love to see cites for it. I can see it as a general rule or that the places where you could actually do much harm visiting would be far fewer, but I really doubt they’d let just anyone walk anywhere. It would pretty much defeat the entire point of having guards in the first place, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/40 "2011-01-05T03:20:53Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Cite? As I recall from my mishmar ezrahi training (:o) that is the Israeli police procedure if you are in danger - actually, loading the gun was somewhere in there too. I doubt American military police are as restricted. Oh my God, I just realized what your username is… Shmendrik, haha! Classic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330.md?page=3)