# Can the guards at Area 51 really shoot to kill **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330 "2011-01-04T07:42:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/61 "2011-01-06T14:53:01Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > They’re not gonna pull a gun because you get lost at three in the morning and roll up to the gate to ask for directions to the nearest Waffle Hut. > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Personal item on the “-- and situation”: Twice I have taken a wrong turn around the Pentagon, the first time resulting in stopping at the gate guard. Both times I politely said I was lost and asked directions to where I was going; both times the guards were most helpful. (As the roadways in the Pentagon area have been confusing ever since the place was built, they probably get this sort of situation several times a day.) At no time did they pull weapons on me. I have no doubt that if someone drove FAST at an entry gate and dodged the barriers to get through, the big guns would come out. I should probably tell this story in full in MPSIMS, but we once accidentally found ourselves at the outermost unmanned gate to the CIA in McLean VA. When they realized that we had no real reason to be there, a few gentleman came out of a nearby building with weapons aimed at us - and fingers on the trigger, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/62 "2011-01-06T21:49:57Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > The answer to your question is “Yes.” There are the guys whose job is “Force Protection”, basically being the cops, who have the specialized training in the guns and the bigger guns and the hand-to-hand stuff, and then there are the “Augmentees”, the mechanics and engineers and clerks and whoever else is in the Air Force who get tapped out to help out. To elaborate: Often the “augmentees” pull duty for a week or so at a time, once every 6-12 months. Almost every unit (at least when I was in in the 80s) did this every year. Most of the time, it was to guard unit buildings such as Battalion armories, Mess Halls, warehouses, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/63 "2011-01-06T21:58:25Z")
So there are guys who, like, guard gates and stand in watchtowers for their entire military service? That must suck. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/64 "2011-01-06T22:22:14Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Umm…what? > > That’s a rather extraordinary claim. Under what circumstances would any random citizen be welcome in a secure military facility, at any time in history? Could a 13th-century peasant freely visit the Tower of London? There’s secure & then there’s Area 51 Secure. Some years ago, a friend’s daughter got married in the chapel at [Fort Sam Houston](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sam_Houston) in San Antonio. It’s quite historic. Some of the wedding party (& I!) stayed at a [B&B](http://www.bullishouseinn.com/bullis-house-inn-history.htm) (also historic) just outside the gate. None of us had any problem driving through the post–checking out the fine old buildings & the menagerie in the Quadrangle, or heading to the Chapel. On a San Antonio visit a few years later, I was able to show my family the post; when we parked at the Quadrangle, an MP came over to say Hi. Since 9/11, things have gotten stricter; you need to show valid ID at the gate. Of course, you might not be allowed in every area. And many _other_ posts/bases are either closed to the public or open for limited tours. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/65 "2011-01-06T22:24:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So there are guys who, like, guard gates and stand in watchtowers for their entire military service? That must suck. Not any more than sitting around in the Battery Communications building and cleaning PRC-77s all day. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/66 "2011-01-07T04:21:27Z")
What is the legal basis of soldiers (or security guards) on bases using deadly force when life is not endangered. If a regular cop shoots someone how is not putting anyone’s life in danger they would face a murder charge. Is there some law that gives people who guard military institutions special protection ? How far does that extend ? Can someone guarding a ramshackle national guard depot somewhere use deadly force on an intruder even if there is nothing inside but a couple of rusting transport trucks ? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/67 "2011-01-07T09:25:56Z")
@\*\*Bridget Burke \*\*: Heck, I’m in the Air Force and by my rough estimate, I’m not allowed to enter most parts of the base. Granted, it’s an Air Force base, which means they built the runways and flightline, found a good place for the golf course, and everything else had to squeeze in where it fit. 😃 I may have gotten the order mixed up regarding the golf course and the runway/flightline. 😉 But yeah, lots of the stuff on base, you need to generally have a need to be there. If you don’t work on jets or repair runways, you probably never really need to be on the flightline. Ditto for getting into a lot of the specialized workcenters, if you don’t need to be there, they’ll show you to the door and give you directions to the chow hall or whatever you got lost trying to find. Except of course for the aforementioned “Breaking Red”. You go over the painted red line without asking permission, you _will_ become intimately familiar with what pavement tastes like. > [@griffin1977](#): > > What is the legal basis of soldiers (or security guards) on bases using deadly force when life is not endangered. If a regular cop shoots someone how is not putting anyone’s life in danger they would face a murder charge. > > Is there some law that gives people who guard military institutions special protection ? How far does that extend ? Can someone guarding a ramshackle national guard depot somewhere use deadly force on an intruder even if there is nothing inside but a couple of rusting transport trucks ? For the most part, deadly force is typically only authorized when life is at risk, but it also extends to certain strategically vital assets (general rule of thumb: Nukes, as well as certain aircraft and such.) Otherwise, they’ll just chase you, put you on the ground, and restrain you. All this varies based on local Rules of Engagement, obviously. If you’re in an area where suicide bombers are a known risk, “Life threatening actions” may include “Getting too close to the guards”. When they say “Stop”, just stop and do what they say. For the most part, they don’t want to have to shoot you any more than you wish to get shot. Edited to add: Oh, as for the National Guardsman guarding the empty ramshackle depot with the trucks, yeah, he would likely see a court martial, be stripped of rank, and spend some considerable time as a guest of the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth (they don’t mean “Barracks” in the bunk beds and XBox sense of the word, they mean it in the “Military Prison” sense of the word). A pair of trucks are not generally worth shooting someone over, and if the intruder was not listening to the guards instructions to halt and depart, they should just physically detain him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/68 "2011-01-07T13:49:57Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Not any more than sitting around in the Battery Communications building and cleaning PRC-77s all day. Maybe. Personally, I’ve always considered guarding a form of penance. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/69 "2011-01-07T15:11:10Z")
**Raguleader** , you just reminded me of an interesting episode when I was in college. My buddy’s dad was an Officer, and he secured us permission to use the bowling alley on base. We took a wrong turn (it was dark), and ended up driving onto a runway in his car. The response was … swift. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/70 "2011-01-07T15:23:54Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:69, topic:566330”] **Raguleader** , you just reminded me of an interesting episode when I was in college. My buddy’s dad was an Officer, and he secured us permission to use the bowling alley on base. We took a wrong turn (it was dark), and ended up driving onto a runway in his car. The response was … swift. [/QUOTE] Hah, sounds like it might have been what my instructors in Basic liked to call “An emotional experience” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/71 "2011-01-07T15:27:22Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:69, topic:566330”] **Raguleader** , you just reminded me of an interesting episode when I was in college. My buddy’s dad was an Officer, and he secured us permission to use the bowling alley on base. We took a wrong turn (it was dark), and ended up driving onto a runway in his car. The response was … swift. [/QUOTE] I’m not surprised, I imagine that entering the run and taxiways without permission from the air traffic controller is big no-no on just about every airfield on the planet. At least that was one of those places we were told to stay away from under all circumstances when I did my military service. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/72 "2011-01-07T17:34:58Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Except of course for “Breaking Red”. You go over the painted red line without asking permission, you _will_ become intimately familiar with what pavement tastes like. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Gary “Wombat” Robson > We took a wrong turn (it was dark), and ended up driving onto a runway in his car. The response was … swift. any more details you can share with us? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/73 "2011-01-07T18:20:19Z")
Oddly, some of my experience has been in ‘force protection’ so I have pretty specific knowledge about that and the responses here are pretty spot on (and bringing back memories). The deal (as I understand it) with Area 51 physical perimeter security is that they CAN shoot you but typically won’t, not for lack of desire or ability, but because they’re contractors for the Wackenhut Corporation and aren’t held to the same standard as active-duty military personnel. Get past them, at your peril, and you’ll have the SP’s to deal with. Bottom line; they CAN shoot you, but they probably WON’T. You can give a run at the gate a try though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/74 "2011-01-07T18:36:25Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > For the most part, deadly force is typically only authorized when life is at risk, but it also extends to certain strategically vital assets (general rule of thumb: Nukes, as well as certain aircraft and such.) All this varies based on local Rules of Engagement, obviously. If My point was how does that work from a legal standpoint. Do the Rules of Engagement trump the law of the land ? (which says that deadly force can only be used if someones life is in danger) Is the some specific law that exempts soldiers from prosecution in a case like this ? What if guard is a private contractor rather than a soldier ? ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/75 "2011-01-07T18:52:28Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > the law of the land ? (which says that deadly force can only be used if someones life is in danger) That’s a bit of an overgeneralization. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/76 "2011-01-07T19:59:49Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My point was how does that work from a legal standpoint. Do the Rules of Engagement trump the law of the land ? (which says that deadly force can only be used if someones life is in danger) Is the some specific law that exempts soldiers from prosecution in a case like this ? What if guard is a private contractor rather than a soldier ? The outside ones ARE private contractors. They are granted the authority on federal land to do what is necessary to protect the vital interests or ‘mission’ of the facility they’re guarding. Make a threatening run with weapons drawn at a nuclear plant, see if you’re not put in check. This? No different. FWIW, the authority to use deadly force (by code) is often times printed on the sign saying that the force is authorized, in case you want to look the rule up on the intarwebs before the buzz cut in the bdu ventilates your cranium. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/77 "2011-01-07T20:56:39Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > . FWIW, the authority to use deadly force (by code) is often times printed on the sign saying that the force is authorized, in case you want to look the rule up on the intarwebs before the buzz cut in the bdu ventilates your cranium. The code cited on the [Area 51 signs](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXeDY3KOwgA/RiTYwNVoefI/AAAAAAAAAXs/9H9vvT7fT1A/s400/Area+51+Warning+Sign-B.jpg) is [this](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/797.html) one. And while it mentions penalties for breaking into secure facilities it doesn’t talk about guards being able to shoot you with impunity for trying. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/78 "2011-01-07T22:14:50Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My point was how does that work from a legal standpoint. Do the Rules of Engagement trump the law of the land ? (which says that deadly force can only be used if someones life is in danger) Is the some specific law that exempts soldiers from prosecution in a case like this ? What if guard is a private contractor rather than a soldier ? I think the basis is that a person breaking into a secure area and gleaning any secure information is a direct threat to life. A person with nothing more elaborate than a standard cell phone could stream top secret information in real time as they walked around, even as they were being captured, searched, etc. the military secrets could still be flowing out. So situations might arise where it is the only way to effectively stop a breach of national security. Besides that, these days a lone attacker strapped with high explosives blowing themselves up at checkpoints is all the rage among the international terror crowd. Any one of the hundreds of people that casually stroll right up to the gate at Area 51 every year looking for UFO’s could technically be strapped with enough explosives to kill everyone in a 50 foot radius. The guards have to greet every one of them as if they were. As often as it happens at area 51 specifically it is amazing none of them have been shot so far. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/79 "2011-01-08T00:34:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My point was how does that work from a legal standpoint. Do the Rules of Engagement trump the law of the land ? (which says that deadly force can only be used if someones life is in danger) Is the some specific law that exempts soldiers from prosecution in a case like this ? What if guard is a private contractor rather than a soldier ? Given that these are usually pretty isolated locations, and the military base & related businesses are probably the biggest employer in town, do you think a local prosecutor or Judge is going to push this much? Especially when the military starts talking about ‘national security’ and protecting our nation from possible ‘terrorists’? At most, they might pay some money to settle a claim by the relatives, and quiet it all down. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330/80 "2011-01-08T01:35:44Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > That they don’t shoot is simply a matter of judgment. Authorization is not the same as a requirement. > > As far as the actual act of firing your weapon goes, there is no other way than to kill. Just like in the civilian world, there is a reasonableness standard. Grandma getting lost is not the same as a guy running straight for a plane with a heavy jacket on in mid-summer. Shoot grandma and you’re going to jail. This is all covered during our annual Use of Force training. Exactly. If you’re grandma and wearing nothing but a peace sign, they may take you to jail. I’ve you’re running around in camo, wearing a ski-mask, and carrying a weapon-shaped object, prepare for something worse. Case in point: A group of 5 people, which included a priest, a nun, and no one younger than 60 broke into the Bangor Naval Base Nuclear Weapon Storage area. The Marines responded (only Marines guard nukes on Navy Bases, no contractors) and I guarantee they had guns and were ready to use them. They saw all the old farts and didn’t shoot them, but the sadistic part of me kind of wishes that they would have “accidentally” shot them in the leg or something for all the trouble. [Article](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013616321_apwanuclearweaponsprotest1stldwritethru.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-guards-at-area-51-really-shoot-to-kill/566330.md?page=5)