# Can the Marines kick you out for throwing a puppy off a cliff? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188 "2008-03-05T15:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/1 "2008-03-05T15:35:12Z")
Factual answers only, please; take the outrage over to the [Pit thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458413) I know absolutely nothing about how the USMC works. Can they kick you out simply for “conduct unbecoming”, or does it have to be something actionable, like fraud or murder? What, then–theoretically–would be this guy’s punishment, assuming they figure out who he is and assuming the video is real? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/2 "2008-03-05T15:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] What, then–theoretically–would be this guy’s punishment, assuming they figure out who he is and assuming the video is real? [/QUOTE] If I’ve worked this out correctly, his punishment would be to be thrown over a cliff, onto a bed of puppies. At least I think that’s right. > [@](#): > > Factual answers only, please Oops. Sorry - I read that bit last. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/3 "2008-03-05T15:45:51Z")
[Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_unbecoming_an_officer_and_a_gentleman) is a charge under the UCMJ, but only applies to commissioned officers and cadets as far as I know. It’s worth noting that the name of this offense has spawned the titles of at least two movies: _An Officer and a Gentleman_ and _Conduct Unbecoming_. If only the sections of the Internal Revenue Code were so poetically named. As for the Marine(s) in the puppy-throwing incident, just like civilian criminal law, there’s all sorts of charges that can be brought for simply being a dick. Disturbing the peace, loitering, trafficking in unlicensed puppies, mopery, etc. I’m sure they’ll come up with something if it turns out the video is real. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/4 "2008-03-05T15:53:57Z")
A casual reading of the UCMJ leads me to believe that the persons involved can be court-martialled under Articles 109, 116 and 134. _ART. 109. PROPERTY OTHER THAN MILITARY PROPERTY OF UNITED STATES - WASTE, SPOILAGE, OR DESTRUCTION Any person subject to this chapter who willfully or recklessly wastes, spoils, or otherwise willfully and wrongfully destroys or damages any property other than military property of the United States shall be punished as a court-martial may direct._ \*ART. 116. RIOT OR BREACH OF PEACE Any person subject to this chapter who causes or participates in any riot or breach of the peace shall be punished as a court- martial may direct. \* \*ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court. \* ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/5 "2008-03-05T16:06:38Z")
Thank you, that’s what I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/6 "2008-03-05T16:24:18Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] Disturbing the peace, loitering, trafficking in unlicensed puppies, mopery, etc. I’m sure they’ll come up with something if it turns out the video is real. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget littering. (sorry about the pun) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/7 "2008-03-05T17:34:49Z")
Although not from Liverpool, they were obviously loitering too… ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/8 "2008-03-05T20:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] What, then–theoretically–would be this guy’s punishment, assuming they figure out who he is and assuming the video is real? [/QUOTE] I think they’ve already figured out who the guy is. I’ve seen the video and I’m not sure it’s real. It looks like it may be a dead puppy and either someone off camera mimics puppy yelps or they were dubbed in later. Again, in the spirit of the OP, let’s not debate whether or not the video is real (I haven’t checked the pit thread - it may be discussed there). But, if the video is a fake, and given the current nature of the video (massive public outcry, etc), what charges would the marine be likely to face? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/9 "2008-03-05T20:22:35Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] [Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_unbecoming_an_officer_and_a_gentleman) is a charge under the UCMJ, but only applies to commissioned officers and cadets as far as I know. It’s worth noting that the name of this offense has spawned the titles of at least two movies: _An Officer and a Gentleman_ and _Conduct Unbecoming_. If only the sections of the Internal Revenue Code were so poetically named. As for the Marine(s) in the puppy-throwing incident, just like civilian criminal law, there’s all sorts of charges that can be brought for simply being a dick. Disturbing the peace, loitering, trafficking in unlicensed puppies, **mopery** , etc. I’m sure they’ll come up with something if it turns out the video is real. [/QUOTE] Exposing yourself to a blind man is against the UCMJ? Who knew? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/10 "2008-03-05T20:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] _ART. 109. PROPERTY OTHER THAN MILITARY PROPERTY OF UNITED STATES - WASTE, SPOILAGE, OR DESTRUCTION Any person subject to this chapter who willfully or recklessly wastes, spoils, or otherwise willfully and wrongfully destroys or damages any property other than military property of the United States shall be punished as a court-martial may direct._ [/QUOTE] Is it just me, or are they missing something critical here? A literal reading of that article would suggest that’s illegal for the Marines to destroy anything. That would seem to render them rather ineffectual… ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/11 "2008-03-05T20:47:24Z")
Accoding to a Marine spokesman, the guilty party “could face a charge of conduct unbecoming a Marine.” There could be administrative action, nonjudicial punishment or a court-martial. “It’s all governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and anything from reduction in pay to reduction in rank to confinement to discharge from the Marine Corps” is possible. ---
**Author:** ![lizardling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@lizardling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lizardling)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/12 "2008-03-05T20:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=engineer\_comp\_geek] I think they’ve already figured out who the guy is. I’ve seen the video and I’m not sure it’s real. It looks like it may be a dead puppy and either someone off camera mimics puppy yelps or they were dubbed in later. Again, in the spirit of the OP, let’s not debate whether or not the video is real (I haven’t checked the pit thread - it may be discussed there). But, if the video is a fake, and given the current nature of the video (massive public outcry, etc), what charges would the marine be likely to face? [/QUOTE] Apparently a specific family has already been receiving death threats because they may be related to the Marine in question, and someone posted their phone number online. :dubious: I worry about what will happen if (as has occurred) the Marine’s identification is false. Richard Jewell, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/13 "2008-03-05T21:22:00Z")
1. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court. So, even if the video is a fake there is always the Gotcha Clause[sup]TM[/sup]. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/14 "2008-03-05T21:33:58Z")
Yep, that third clause will get you every time. And this video certainly “brings discredit upon the armed forces,” fake or not. He’s toast. ---
**Author:** ![Harry1945](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Harry1945](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harry1945)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/15 "2008-03-06T01:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] Is it just me, or are they missing something critical here? A literal reading of that article would suggest that’s illegal for the Marines to destroy anything. That would seem to render them rather ineffectual… [/QUOTE] Keywords there are “willful” and “reckless.” IANAL but I suspect (sorry) that destroying a place from which you were being shot at would not fall into those categories, especially since elsewhere in the UCMJ it states that you’re required to follow lawful orders. ---
**Author:** ![MadPansy64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@MadPansy64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadPansy64)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/16 "2008-03-06T02:47:36Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] Is it just me, or are they missing something critical here? A literal reading of that article would suggest that’s illegal for the Marines to destroy anything. That would seem to render them rather ineffectual… [/QUOTE] Elsewhere it says they must follow lawful orders. Which is why Marines have Officers (on which to blame things) and are encouraged to use their brains. Seriously – the Corps has more stringent requirements than some of the other forces, but occasionally, a scumball moron hides his idiocy throughout boot & AIT (?? Is it still called AIT?). No cites, since my jarhead friends aren’t here, nor are they near the puppy-tosser, but I’m pretty that the dickhead had “slipped” in the shower a few times before the press got ahold of the story. Shower Parties may not be as permanent as being flung off of a cliff, but they do recur. 😉 If Shower Parties ever happened, of course, which they certainly don’t. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/17 "2008-03-06T03:23:41Z")
[QUOTE=MadPansy64] Elsewhere it says they must follow lawful orders. Which is why Marines have Officers (on which to blame things) and are encouraged to use their brains. Seriously – the Corps has more stringent requirements than some of the other forces, but occasionally, a scumball moron hides his idiocy throughout boot & AIT (?? Is it still called AIT?). No cites, since my jarhead friends aren’t here, nor are they near the puppy-tosser, but I’m pretty that the dickhead had “slipped” in the shower a few times before the press got ahold of the story. Shower Parties may not be as permanent as being flung off of a cliff, but they do recur. 😉 If Shower Parties ever happened, of course, which they certainly don’t. [/QUOTE] Code Red… ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/18 "2008-06-12T12:15:50Z")
Update: Apparently yes, the Marines can kick you out for throwing a puppy off a cliff. [http://starbulletin.com/2008/06/12/news/story02.html](http://starbulletin.com/2008/06/12/news/story02.html) > [@](#): > > Marines punish pair for dog’s death > Throwing a puppy off a cliff gets one Iraq vet kicked out of the Corps > One Kaneohe Marine will be kicked out of the service and a second will be punished for their role in tossing a puppy off a cliff in Iraq. > > Lance Cpl. David Motari is “being processed for separation” from the Marine Corps. Sgt. Crismarvin Banez Encarnacion, assigned to the Kaneohe unit from San Diego, received unspecified “nonjudicial” punishment. > > Both are members of Kaneohe’s 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, which returned from Iraq late last year and will be returning in September. Video of the March 2007 incident was widely viewed over the Internet and generated a firestorm of condemnation and an apology from the Marine Corps. > > The Marine Corps said Lance Cpl. David Motari received nonjudicial punishment from Lt. Col. Andrew Milburn, commanding officer of 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, and is being processed for separation from the Marine Corps. > > Another Marine, Sgt. Crismarvin Banez Encarnacion, from a training battalion at the Marine Recruit Depot in San Diego, also received unspecified, nonjudicial punishment for his role in the episode. > > \< snip \> > > Maj. Chris Perrine, Kaneohe spokesman, described the punishment as an administrative procedure, just a step below a pretrial hearing and a formal court-martial. > > However, unlike military pretrial or court-martial proceedings, the military is not required to release any details about the incident because of U.S. privacy laws. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/19 "2008-06-12T15:29:38Z")
Back in the 80s, the Navy heavily utilized Article 134 during “project upgrade” to get rid of malcontents, druggies and slackers. I remember helping compile hit lists of people that should be discharged. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188/20 "2008-06-12T15:42:26Z")
[QUOTE=Chefguy] Back in the 80s, the Navy heavily utilized Article 134 during “project upgrade” to get rid of malcontents, druggies and slackers. I remember helping compile hit lists of people that should be discharged. [/QUOTE] Chefguy…navy…hmmm Singlehandedly fight off any attempts to steal missles from a battleship lately? 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-marines-kick-you-out-for-throwing-a-puppy-off-a-cliff/440188.md?page=2)