# Can the police identify any printed paper **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 23, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506 "2019-07-23T18:49:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nansbread1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/1 "2019-07-23T18:49:36Z")
Is it an urban myth that modern day police can identify a ransom or other printed note from The printer used which leaves a unique signature built into every modern day printer And the paper which has a buried code of relevant info like sold to, when, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/2 "2019-07-23T18:55:07Z")
> **[Machine Identification Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code)** > > A Machine Identification Code (MIC), also known as printer steganography, yellow dots, tracking dots or secret dots, is a digital watermark which certain color laser printers and copiers leave on every printed page, allowing identification of the device which was used to print a document and giving clues to the originator. Developed by Xerox and Canon in the mid-1980s, its existence became public only in 2004. In 2018, scientists developed privacy software to anonymize prints in order to suppor... ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/3 "2019-07-23T19:32:31Z")
Not that you personally bought it, but there are markers in paper produced that the manufacturer can determine which batch it came from. The manufacturer can then determine which day it was produced and to which distributor or customer bought it. The piece of paper was in the batch that was produced on such and such day and shipped to the Walmart or Dunder Mifflin distribution facility in Scranton, PA. Walmart probably could track it further to which store it was distributed to. And could probably track the individual reams were sold to particular point of sale stations. They could probably then pull up whether or not a credit card was used to purchase those specific reams and even pull up security footage of the transaction taking place. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/4 "2019-07-23T21:18:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > …or Dunder Mifflin distribution facility in Scranton, PA. Some of the marks [are less subtle than others](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_Recall). ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/5 "2019-07-23T21:35:32Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > And could probably track the individual reams were sold to particular point of sale stations. I really doubt that. They’re all going to use the same UPC. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/6 "2019-07-23T22:32:01Z")
Even if authorities can’t track a specific printer, they can identify an Internet download used in printing something, which is how [a certain serial killer](https://murderpedia.org/male.T/t/travis-maury.htm) was located. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/7 "2019-07-23T22:39:06Z")
That story, while interesting, doesn’t tell us anything about whether the authorities can identify actual pieces of paper. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/8 "2019-07-23T23:03:58Z")
Do home network printers ‘phone home’ to check for firmware updates or similar. That might work if the machine identification code and IP address were correlated. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/9 "2019-07-23T23:31:07Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Not that you personally bought it, but there are markers in paper produced that the manufacturer can determine which batch it came from. The manufacturer can then determine which day it was produced and to which distributor or customer bought it. The piece of paper was in the batch that was produced on such and such day and shipped to the Walmart or Dunder Mifflin distribution facility in Scranton, PA. I can well imagine that the wrappers on reams of paper can be marked and tracked, but I don’t believe that the individual pages are marked. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/10 "2019-07-23T23:33:52Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The manufacturer can then determine which day it was produced and to which distributor or customer bought it. The piece of paper was in the batch that was produced on such and such day and shipped to the Walmart or Dunder Mifflin distribution facility in Scranton, PA. > > Walmart probably could track it further to which store it was distributed to. And could probably track the individual reams were sold to particular point of sale stations. I worked for a manufacturer and products without serial numbers were never traceable to this degree. One of my friends works in the good industry and they have similar issues. We talked about it because there was contamination of one lot. Even though each lot number is printed in the cans, the cases aren’t tracked. After being manufactured, the cases are placed in a warehouse at the manufacturer. Cases are sold to various stores and distributors, but not tracked. Stores and warehouses all have inventory and new cases just get added to those. And that’s for products which manufacturing dates and lots printed on the can itself. I haven’t heard about paper having lot numbers embedded into it. Do you have a site for the practice? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/11 "2019-07-23T23:38:32Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I really doubt that. They’re all going to use the same UPC. True enough, but if a manufacturer can pin it down to a retailer, most of the big boys supply chains can whittle it down to a few stores. the individual stores will have dates and times that cases or reams of that product were sold. Narrowing a pool of millions down to dozens. if you already have a suspect, you might need to watch 12 hours of video to find them, but confirming he bought that brand/style of paper could be useful evidence if we are talking ransom notes and serial killers taunting police. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/12 "2019-07-23T23:38:36Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#): > > Is it an urban myth that modern day police can identify a ransom or other printed note from > > The printer used which leaves a unique signature built into every modern day printer > > And the paper which has a buried code of relevant info like sold to, when, etc. Need answer fast…? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/13 "2019-07-24T01:42:31Z")
Food is getting increasingly accurate tracking, because of food contamination problems. This means marking and recording cases, both at the farm and in distribution – which was never really done in the past in Aus (although it was already done in France 30 years ago for some foods). Paper used to be much more distinctive than it is now, because there were smaller producers and more of them, and distribution was smallser. So Sherlock Holmes could identify paper just because he was familiar with all the different kinds of paper produced in the UK, and where they were sold. There is some discussion [here](http://www.paperhistory.org/standard.htm) about watermarks. Old paper can be dated and identified from the unintentional marks left by the manufacturing process. I’ve not heard that the same is true about modern paper, but I’m ready to be educated. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/14 "2019-07-24T10:09:04Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > True enough, but if a manufacturer can pin it down to a retailer, most of the big boys supply chains can whittle it down to a few stores. the individual stores will have dates and times that cases or reams of that product were sold. Narrowing a pool of millions down to dozens. if you already have a suspect, you might need to watch 12 hours of video to find them, but confirming he bought that brand/style of paper could be useful evidence if we are talking ransom notes and serial killers taunting police. The problem with all of this is that Hollywood magic is not an acceptable answer. There simply isn’t a simple process of embedding a lot number and manufacturing date on paper. The first step in manufacturing paper is to create large rolls of the material. Do you have a cite that ordinary printing paper has some sort of secret watermark which identifies the manufacturer let alone the lot or date? These rolls would be stored for use. Unless you can provide a cite that the paper industry has completely different standards than other manufacturers, these rolls are not tracked. The quantity is recorded so there could be a general idea of when the roll is used could be deduced, but that would not be exact. You say, “but if a manufacturer can pin it down to a retailer.” How? The rest is problematic as well. See my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/15 "2019-07-24T13:15:33Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > True enough, but if a manufacturer can pin it down to a retailer, most of the big boys supply chains can whittle it down to a few stores. the individual stores will have dates and times that cases or reams of that product were sold. Narrowing a pool of millions down to dozens. if you already have a suspect, you might need to watch 12 hours of video to find them, but confirming he bought that brand/style of paper could be useful evidence if we are talking ransom notes and serial killers taunting police. How often do you print something? I don’t go thru a ream a year, probably not even a ream a decade…& that’s assuming I used my paper; didn’t get an extra sheet or two when I went to the print/copy store or local library or asked a neighbor for a couple of pieces since I was ‘out’ of my own. I think at best, if they already knew me as a suspect, they could tie the ransom note paper to the same style of paper I have in my house but even that’s not definitive but it’s one more brick in building the case. What is probably more likely is my printer leaves a distinctive pattern on the paper due to some misaligned roller (assuming I printed the note & didn’t cut out random letters from a magazine & glue them on.) ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/16 "2019-07-24T13:18:08Z")
After having worked in the manufacturing business for both goods and foods, I agree with the others that have posted that while theoretically possible, I’ve never heard of this level of tracking in an industry like paper products. This level of tracking detail is normally only used by companies that potentially have serious safety or quality related recall issues. Paper manufacturers would have no reason to set up such a tracking system. They’d never need to use it other than in police cases. I’ve never heard of a safety related recall of printer paper. On the other hand, this type of tracking is commonly used in the food industry (HAACP) as well as various other industries using ISO standards. I’ve only every seen it when critical product recall (i.e: safety and quality related) may be required. Lastly - I have no idea if this is similar to the paper industry, but I did work in the plastic bag manufacturing industry for a time and our head engineer was called into a murder case. He was able to confirm that a plastic garbage bag that had body parts was from the same package found in the murderer’s home. If you hold a bag up to the light you see a “wavy / striped” pattern produced as the liquid plastic is extruded. The bags are produced in a continuous “balloon” which is then cut / sealed into the individual bags. The stripe pattern meanders throughout the production run, but between bags (cut one after the other) it’s almost identical. He could say the bags were from the same package. Guilty!! ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/17 "2019-07-24T14:31:07Z")
What about craft paper that can be light colored enough for people to print on them. paper like scrapbook paper etc. Are they usually made in the US and have the same level of tracking ? ---
**Author:** ![road\_lobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@road\_lobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/road_lobo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/18 "2019-07-24T16:17:06Z")
“Watermarks also may be useful to examiners as a means of identifying the type of paper, manufacturer, and date of production. Watermarks are frequently visualized simply by using transmitted light or soft x-rays, which produces an image of the density of fibers.” > **[An Overview of Forensic Document Examination](https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/forensic-document-examination-expert-witness#Paper)** > > Forensic Document Examination is a scientific discipline that examines documents disputed in the legal system with the purpose of evaluating the attributes and characteristics of a document in order to reveal how it was prepared or how it may have... I only quoted two sentences in deference to the elder gods. There is more about paper at the above anchor link, and the whole page might be of interest to a Doper. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-police-identify-any-printed-paper/837506/19 "2019-07-24T17:02:49Z")
I haven’t seen paper with a watermark for ages. I have several reams of paper - the huge pile (1000 sheets?) from Costco; I also have a 500-sheet sample of bright white coated paper suitable for colour printing (laser) that has a higher level of clay, I assume, but is nowhere near glossy - which I received as _a free sample from the Xerox salesman 15 years ago_. I’ve also seen slightly fuzzy paper from recycled sources which the Xerox guy warned me risked gumming up the works in fancier copiers. (which of course are all printers nowadays) 50 years ago, I used to cadge blank paper from my dad and it seems it always had a visible brand watermark. So I don’t think anyone can trace such a bulk product, but the previous posters have it right - if the paper is in any way distinctive, once they’ve identified you as a suspect they can match up paper in your house with the ransom note. OTOH, I just bought a colour Multifunction Laser from Costco the other day - for under $200. Not sure if these will actually print the yellow printer code dots, but I would not be surprised if they do. (IIRC the higher end copiers refuse to print currency - that’s embedded in the firmware. I haven’t tried this one, and Canadian currency is on polymer now anyway) But unless I register it, I don’t think Costco can do much more than identify me as one of dozens in the city who bought that model, they scanned the UPC not the serial number - leaving the police with the old gumshoe technique “go interview everyone who bought one”. So… buy your printer from Best Buy, in another city, with cash.