# Can the President fire the Vice President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052 "2017-08-08T02:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/41 "2017-08-09T03:38:33Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > …Or find some territory with no local laws against murder. Washington DC is out, even though it’s not a state the local cops can still arrest you for murder. Some uninhabited island under Federal control might do it. Unlike a state the District of Columbia has no sovereignty; all crimes in the city are still federal crimes, even if Congress has delegated legislative authority to the City Council. They’re even prosecuted by the United States Attorney’s office instead of a prosecutor’s office under local control. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/42 "2017-08-09T03:46:41Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Or where a controversial law needed to pass the Senate and the VP was unavailable to cast the deciding vote. That happened several times, prior to the passage of the 25th Amendment. Before the 25th was passed, there was no way to fill a vacancy in the Vice-presidency, whether by death, resignation or succession to the presidency. • Madison had both of his V-P’s (Gerry and Clinton) die in office; • Calhoun resigned the office, leaving Jackson without a V-P in his first term; • John Tyler succeed to the presidency on Harrison’s death; • Fillmore succeeded to the presidency on Taylor’s death; • King died of TB six weeks after being sworn in, so Pierce was without a V-P for almost his entire presidency; • Johnson succeeded on Lincoln’s death; • Wilson died in office, so Grant was without a V-P for most of his second term; • Arthur succeeded to the presidency on Garfield’s death; • Hendricks died in office after only eight months, so Cleveland was without a V-P for most of his first term; • Hobart died after three years in office; • Theodore Roosevelt succeeded to the presidency on McKinley’s death; • Coolidge succeeded to the presidency on Harding’s death; • Truman succeeded to the presidency on FDR’s death; • Johnson succeeded to the presidency on JFK’s death. And there were short gaps before Ford and then Rockefeller were confirmed as V-P under the 25th Amendment. So for a considerable total length of time, there was no Vice-President to break ties in the Senate. Somehow the Republic survived. It just meant that a tied bill was defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/43 "2017-08-09T11:54:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Unlike a state the District of Columbia has no sovereignty; all crimes in the city are still federal crimes, even if Congress has delegated legislative authority to the City Council. They’re even prosecuted by the United States Attorney’s office instead of a prosecutor’s office under local control. So they could duel on the White House lawn. Most Excellent! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/44 "2017-08-09T12:11:20Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The Constitution of the United States itself is silent on the question. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It may be undetermined because no President has tried, but the Constitution already has a lot to say about it, with positive and negative evidence. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > No matter how hard you try to spin it, I did not even try to contradict you. Amazingly, when I say something is “silent” on a question, and you then say that it “has a lot to say about it”, that’s a literal **contradiction**. Funny how I might think that was what you were doing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/45 "2017-08-09T14:49:24Z")
The vice-presidency was originally the position for the presidential runner-up. It would be pretty strange if anyone intended for the president to be able to fire him. Nowhere is it mentioned the VP serves at the pleasure of the president. The VP is also not purely a member of the executive branch as he serves as president of the Senate. I think we can very safely say the President cannot fire the VP anymore than he could fire a Senator. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/46 "2017-08-09T15:31:37Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Most people probably understood that to mean that I considered it very unlikely that the President could do it, even though I made the point that we don’t know for certain. \ Given that the VP is an independently elected position, I think the likelihood that the president can unilaterally fire him is close enough zero to be effectively impossible. Dismissing an elected official without some kind of due process (impeachment or other judicial method) would violate basic democratic principles, no matter who does it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/47 "2017-08-09T15:48:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If a president asked (told) a VP to resign, it would be an odd situation where the VP declined to do so. As noted, the president can make things miserable for the VP if he so chooses. Unless, of course, the president himself is in dire political trouble and is trying to get rid of the VP in order to save his own skin. But unless the VP had powerful allies, it would behoove him or her to “spend more time with the family”. How unpleasant could he really make it though? Boring and low profile, sure. But let’s say Pence and Trump start publicly hating each other. What could he do to Pence other than take away responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/48 "2017-08-09T15:57:46Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > … > > Or find some territory with no local laws against murder. Washington DC is out, even though it’s not a state the local cops can still arrest you for murder. Some uninhabited island under Federal control might do it. There’s always that State Park place in Wyoming or wherever the hell it is (long GQ thread somewhere on that Murder-is-Legal, supposedly, special place). ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/49 "2017-08-09T15:59:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How unpleasant could he really make it though? Boring and low profile, sure. But let’s say Pence and Trump start publicly hating each other. What could he do to Pence other than take away responsibilities? A President could leave a V-P out of meetings, deny him briefings, and essentially deny him enough insider information so as to make the VP seem clueless. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/50 "2017-08-09T16:10:20Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > A President could leave a V-P out of meetings, deny him briefings, and essentially deny him enough insider information so as to make the VP seem clueless. I see what you’re saying; then Trump and Pence would be on even ground. 😉 I suppose the President could also slash the VP’s support staff and office space. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/51 "2017-08-09T16:36:20Z")
He could also send the VP on repeated fact-finding tours to faraway dangerous, boring or inconvenient places. The VP might eventually refuse to go, but he’d remain VP. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Amazingly, when I say something is “silent” on a question, and you then say that it “has a lot to say about it”, that’s a literal **contradiction**. Funny how I might think that was what you were doing. I’m sorry, I came here for an _argument_. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/52 "2017-08-09T16:52:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > He could also send the VP on repeated fact-finding tours to faraway dangerous, boring or inconvenient places. The VP might eventually refuse to go, but he’d remain VP. Eventually? “Hey Pence. Need you to go to Somalia and get the lay of the land.” “Sorry, I got heel spurs.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/53 "2017-08-09T17:28:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The only thing he could do is replace him on the ticket in 2020. And, _in theory_, that is not guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/54 "2017-08-09T17:31:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m sorry, I came here for an _argument_. That’s 12-A, down the hall. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/55 "2017-08-09T17:32:29Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > It’s been noted this is wrong, but for completeness, the poster is talking about either John Nance Garner (FDR’s first VP) or Henry Wallace (his second.) > > Garner was the one who called the vice presidency “not worth a bucket of warm piss.” Garner broke with Roosevelt during their second term. Wallace was the one who was distrusted by the party bosses. FDR dumped him as VP, Here’s the story behind Garners maybe quote : [https://www.cah.utexas.edu/news/press\_release.php?press=press\_bucket](https://www.cah.utexas.edu/news/press_release.php?press=press_bucket) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/56 "2017-08-09T18:32:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The problem with this idea is that the President only has the power to pardon crimes against the United States. Murder is a state crime and so you’d need a state governor to pardon you. > > Or find some territory with no local laws against murder. Washington DC is out, even though it’s not a state the local cops can still arrest you for murder. Some uninhabited island under Federal control might do it. I don’t think the Secret Service is going to let Podunk P.D., State Troopers, DC Police or even the FBI take the President into custody and lock him in a cage, _even if_ he murdered someone on Fifth Avenue in broad daylight. So the President can do whatever he wants anywhere in the country (and probably most other countries on Earth), and law enforcement and the courts only get a crack at him _after_ Congress impeaches him and removes him from office. That or his term ends. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/57 "2017-08-09T19:32:38Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Couldn’t POTUS challenge the VP to a dual, kill the VP and then pardon himself? There appears to be precedent here is all I’m saying. And damn that would make great TV! I’d watch that one, the ratings would be stellar. 😃 Unfortunately, dueling is illegal in D.C. But, two people can mutually agree to a fistfight as long as the police referee. Now, _that_ I’d pay to see. Trump vs Pence with bare knuckles in the middle of Fifth Avenue. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/58 "2017-08-09T21:36:25Z")
And a pardon won’t stop Congress from impeaching, which they’d pretty much have to do. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/59 "2017-08-09T22:01:04Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And a pardon won’t stop Congress from impeaching, which they’d pretty much have to do. WTF has that got to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052/60 "2017-08-10T00:30:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > WTF has that got to do with anything? The conversation started with firing the VP, wandered into duels and pardons, I don’t see that impeachment is much of a topic stretch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-fire-the-vice-president/793052.md?page=4)