# Can the President overrule "Top Secret" classification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 1, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322 "2003-05-01T05:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/1 "2003-05-01T05:17:58Z")
I presume that the various procedures for making certain information classified and for determining who this information can be revealed to is a matter of federal law. But does the President of the United States have the discretionary power to overrule the classification either of information or of a person? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/2 "2003-05-01T10:46:12Z")
I don’t have a cite, but yes. The President can decide to declassify material, simply by the process of announcing or releasing it. Examples would be the U2 pictures taken over Cuba, and the audio tape of the Russian pilot shooting down the KAL airliner in the 80’s. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/3 "2003-05-01T12:18:47Z")
As an example, Jimmy Carter announced the existence of the stealth bomber, despite the fact it had previously been top secret. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/4 "2003-05-01T14:23:48Z")
Yeah, all the people who do the actual classification work for the President. He can overrule them at will. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/5 "2003-05-01T15:32:18Z")
Don’t forget that Top Secret classification is not that big a deal. It sounds good, but people that are cleared for Top Secret include general office staff. Alpha and Bravo classifications are much higher on the security ladder, and no, the president cannot just decide to make this information public. Much of this information is classified before too many people even know it’s existance. Remeber that the president is a busy guy, he dosen’t read every single thing that goes on in the name of the US govt. on a daily basis. He trust’s his staff to do those things. ---
**Author:** ![LowerLip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/839c29/32.png) [@LowerLip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LowerLip)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/6 "2003-05-01T15:36:20Z")
Changing the topic slightly: Can the president ask for and see top secret info? Or are there some things that are classified that even the president is not allowed to see? LL ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/7 "2003-05-01T15:39:20Z")
There shouldn’t be – the president by the nature of his job should have the highest possible security clearance. This doesn’t mean people in the DoD my decide to keep things from him, either because they don’t trust him, or they want him to have deniability. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/8 "2003-05-01T15:44:39Z")
The problem is a practical one. For instance, even now, there are tons of douments from World War I that are still “classified.” Is there any good reason NOT to declassify them? No. But even if the President wanted all those files declassified, he can’t just do that by fiat. A team of specialists would have to go through all those files and declassify them. That’s time-consuming and expensive… which is a big part of the reason so many things remain classified loooong after there’s any valid reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/9 "2003-05-01T16:09:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*As an example, Jimmy Carter announced the existence of the stealth bomber, despite the fact it had previously been top secret. \*\* Huh? IIRC, both the F117A and B2 were not announced until 1987 or 88, many years after his term. Of course, speculation of the F19 was rampant for a few years before this, but I don’t believe even as early as Jimmy’s term. ---
**Author:** ![HBby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/977dab/32.png) [@HBby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HBby)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/10 "2003-05-01T16:48:06Z")
The President would have to suffer through the red tape to declassify information just like anyone else in the government. And like what other posters already said, usually the staff would do this and I’m sure all the paperwork wouldn’t just sit in someone’s inbox at the gov entity that “owns” the TS info, and it would automatically go to the top of the pile. How is it done? This is a basic overview… If the White House wants to get a hold of TS info, then they would have to basically ask for permission from the hosting facility (can be a private company or a government branch) by sending a letter and it is up to the Facility Security Officer of the facility to do his/her research to clear the White House for knowledge of the info. This can be denied, but usually isn’t if it’s the White House. If the White House wants to declassify the info it obtained, they would then send electronic submittal of forms to the Defense Security Service and a courtesy letter to the IS Field Rep, stating that the information does not need to be at the TS level anymore. More paperwork. I’ll admit that some TS information and sites seem trivial, but some most definitely are. Things that can be classified as TS can range from a room with a file box of classified blueprints, to a nuclear research lab’s boiler room, to a pile of 2 x 4s and pipes waiting to be placed inside a U.S. Embassy, to a large contractor’s server and all the information on it. People who have TS clearances can be the janitor who mops the floor of the TS cleared building, to the CFO of a corporation with government contracts, to the military personnel who has to configure networks. I’ve heard that every time a person submits paperwork in for a TS clearance, it costs the government at least $20,000 worth of man-hours for the paperwork to be processed and several months, sometimes years, for a person to be cleared. I assume declassification would cost a pretty penny and is not done unless the information _needs_ to be disclosed to the public. Hope this “cleared” some things up. \<–me attempting to be punny. Um, nm. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/11 "2003-05-01T16:53:40Z")
Come on people, this is GQ, we can do better than rampant speculation. How about a few cites? [Executive Order 12958](http://www.dss.mil/seclib/eo12958.htm) - Classified National Security Information > [@](#): > > **Sec. 1.4. Classification Authority.** > > a. The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by: > > 1. The President; > 2. agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register; or > 3. United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph ©, below. > > b. Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are also authorized to classify information at a lower level. > > c. Delegation of original classification authority: > > 1. Delegations of original classification authority shall be limited to the minimum required to administer this order. Agency heads are responsible for ensuring that designated subordinate officials have a demonstrable and continuing need to exercise this authority. > 2. “Top Secret” original classification authority may be delegated only by the President or by an agency head or official designated pursuant to paragraph (a)(2), above. > 3. “Secret” or “Confidential” original classification authority may be delegated only by the President; an agency head or official designated pursuant to paragraph (a)(2), above; or the senior agency official, provided that official has been delegated “Top Secret” original classification authority by the agency head. > 4. Each delegation of original classification authority shall be in writing and the authority shall not be redelegated except as provided in this order. Each delegation shall identify the official by name or position title. Also see [Executive Order 12968](http://www.dss.mil/seclib/eo12968.htm) - Access to Classified Information ---
**Author:** ![Mandarax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Mandarax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandarax)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/12 "2003-05-01T17:05:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > \*\*Huh? IIRC, both the F117A and B2 were not announced until 1987 or 88, many years after his term. > > Of course, speculation of the F19 was rampant for a few years before this, but I don’t believe even as early as Jimmy’s term. \*\* [Carter _did_ leak Top-Secret info about the F117:](http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/cunn.html) > [@](#): > > In November 1988 a decade of secrecy was lifted from one of the most enigmatic aircraft projects of all time: the Lockheed F-117A stealth fighter. In the 10 years since the **program was officially announced by the Carter administration** , numerous reports have been published in both the technical and popular media about the aircraft. > … > In August 1980, during the height of candidate mudslinging, word of stealth technology was leaked and immediately picked up in all the media, technical and popular alike… On 22 August Secretary of Defense Harold Brown held a press conference to clarify the stealth “leak.” At the conference, Brown confirmed the details published in the media. The purpose of confirming the leaks, Brown insisted, was to create a “firebreak” and prevent further information about the program being revealed. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![HBby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/977dab/32.png) [@HBby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HBby)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/13 "2003-05-01T18:03:13Z")
**av8rmike** has a good site about which government entity can classify information. But, it doesn’t answer the OP’s question. The President can not simply overrule a classification that was made by another government agency. There are steps that need to be done, forms to fill out, letters to write–and each piece of classified info is different. Classification on info or sites can simply expire. He doesn’t have _absolute_ authority over what can be classified, except by what was authorized by the President (and I’m even sure that requires paperwork also). There’s also been a proposal to establish a central declassification system, because things get so mucked up. [From this site](http://www.dss.mil/search-dir/isec/chapter4.htm): > [@](#): > > The fact that classified information has been made public does not mean that it is automatically declassified. > [@](#): > > Information is downgraded or declassified based on the loss of sensitivity of the information due to the passage of time or on occurrence of a specific event. > [@](#): > > All classified information shall be marked to reflect the source of the classification and declassification instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/14 "2003-05-02T11:48:44Z")
Let’s imagine it’s a Tom Clancy book or a Jerry Bruckheimer movie. We’re about four hundred pages or seventy minutes into it and the plucky low level hero (Bruce Willis) has been called to an emergency meeting with the President (Gregory Peck): Captain Smith: … so that’s where we stand, Mr President. God help us all, but there’s nothing we can do. President: General Johnson, I think it’s time we tell Captain Smith the real secret behind Operation Omega. General Johnson: But Mr President … Captain Smith isn’t cleared for that kind of information. President: He is now. Tell him everything, General. That’s an order. General Johnson: Yes, Mr President. Well, Captain, let me start at the beginning … Now, leaving aside the melodrama, is this legal? Could the General have said, “I’m sorry, Mr President, but that order is illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/15 "2003-05-02T12:01:31Z")
Technically it might be out-of-procedure (and possibly illegal). As a practical matter anyone who tried to either A) obstruct the President from doing so or B) prosecute the President for doing so would end up in the private sector pretty damn fast. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/16 "2003-05-02T14:39:27Z")
HB: No entitie within the Executive Depatment is “another government agency” with regards to the President. The President is the head of the Executive Department. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/17 "2003-05-02T14:40:48Z")
Er…that would be _entitity_, not _entitie_ above. ---
**Author:** ![HBby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/977dab/32.png) [@HBby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HBby)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/18 "2003-05-02T17:41:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*HB: No entitie within the Executive Depatment is “another government agency” with regards to the President. The President is the head of the Executive Department. \*\* So you’re saying that the President _does_ have the authority to overrule a classification deemed sensitive to national security? Cite? Or are we talking about semantics and I should have said “a government,” instead of “another government?” If that’s the case, I’d edit it if I could. **Having a higher level of clearance does not give free reign for someone to view, obtain or have knowledge of info or places or over people with the same level of clearance or lower.** Believe it or not, even Bush would have to get permission to come to a secured site or view secured info. Let’s put it in a possible and legal scenario: Bush wants to come to a TS cleared facility of a company that has contracts with the Army. This company manufactures a patented widget that goes into fighter planes. Bush shows up at the front gates, unannounced and gets turned away, because he’s not on a list of cleared personnel. Then, Bush writes a letter to the Facility Security Officer for permission to enter the premises. The FSO denies the request. Then Bush decides he wants to declassify the widget so he can check it out. He may find that he can’t because the declassification instructions for the widget won’t let him, by stating it can not expire or be downgraded or declassified until ten years after the widget has stopped being manufactured. So, he tries to declassify the facility and the people that work for the company. He will find that the only way to do this is to prove: 1) there is no need for facility or people to be cleared at the TS level anymore–hard to do, since they manufacture the widget; 2) has been involved in suspicious activities; 3) does not manufacture the widget anymore, which would mean breaking the contract. All this can be found in the all holy NISPOM (National Industrial Security Program Operating Manual–the DSS provides copies) and the Essentials of Industrial Security Management Handbook that can be downloaded in .pdf format at the dss.mil website. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/19 "2003-05-02T18:04:30Z")
Can one President designate a career bureaucrat as a classification authority? If that were the case, then the next President may remain uninformed of certain matters, subject to the discretion of the bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322/20 "2003-05-02T18:08:37Z")
None of which is allowed to apply to the President in practical terms. Formally he could just say “I issue an executive order that, for National Security reasons I must get in this building.” Informally he could say, “Shut the fuck up you low life contractor or you won’t get a contract to catch dogs from here on out.” The President controls those people doing the controlling. Literally, what he says goes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-president-overrule-top-secret-classification/172322.md?page=2)