# Can the Socratic Method win any argument
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 20, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809 "2014-02-20T18:40:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/21 "2014-02-20T20:23:15Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#):
>
> I would disagree that even used disingenuously that one can win any argument. If one has a solid case, where the conclusion logically follows from the premises, all it would really do is disect the argument back to the premises. If you break it down the the premises and they’re solid, meaningful premises, then the disingenuous socratic arguer basically just walked you through proving your case.
>
> Look at it from a mathematical perspective. Every proof is based upon previous proofs but eventually can be traced back to some fundamental axioms. Sure, once you get to those axioms, the why stops because because of some previous statement and just becomes the simple argument that if you reject those axioms, you’d essentially have to reject the entirety of mathematics.
>
> Obviously, it’s not going to be that big in a lot of cases, but really, when you get down to it, that’s what a lot of arguments are. Either one (or both) is making a logical mistake between their premises and their conclusion, or the two people disagree on the validity of the premises. So following the socratic method would just eliminate the first issue. And, if you agree on the logic and agree on the premises, then you can’t disagree with the conclusion in good faith.
umm… thats like too many big words i really don’t get what you are saying
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/22 "2014-02-20T20:34:06Z")
**Otter** : Ladies and gentlemen, I’ll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.
[winks at Dean Wormer]
**Otter** : But you can’t hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
[Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/23 "2014-02-20T20:34:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> umm… thats like too many big words i really don’t get what you are saying
Let’s start back at the beginning, then.
Could you please tell us what you think the Socratic Method is?
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/24 "2014-02-20T20:35:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Let’s start back at the beginning, then.
> Could you please tell us what you think the Socratic Method is?
no
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/25 "2014-02-20T20:36:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> **Otter** : Ladies and gentlemen, I’ll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.
>
> [winks at Dean Wormer]
>
> **Otter** : But you can’t hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
>
> [Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
:p:p:p
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/26 "2014-02-20T20:38:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> no
Ooookay.
Do you accept this simple definition from Wiki?
> [@](#):
>
> Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict himself in some way, thus strengthening the inquirer’s own point.
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/27 "2014-02-20T20:39:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Ooookay.
>
> Do you accept this simple definition from Wiki?
what do you mean by the word “simple”
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/28 "2014-02-20T20:46:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> what do you mean by the word “simple”
Does this thread have any ties to [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17124559&postcount=108)? If it doesn’t, could you please describe what you mean by “Socratic Method”?
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/29 "2014-02-20T21:06:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> You could use the Socratic method to win any argument right?
No.
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/30 "2014-02-20T21:13:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Does this thread have any ties to [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17124559&postcount=108)? If it doesn’t, could you please describe what you mean by “Socratic Method”?
no, it didnt. by socratic method i mean when socrates, supposedly, would say well what do you mean by justice? but how do you know that is fair? and who determines what is fair? does this apply to all situations… like that
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### Author:  [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/31 "2014-02-20T21:13:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> ok, no offense to anyone else but i think this is the best response so far. how do you know when you’ve got to the bare assumption???
Interestng question. Another thread perhaps.
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/32 "2014-02-20T21:18:09Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#):
>
> Interestng question. Another thread perhaps.
i’m still trying to learn the posting habits and rules of this site. i’d be glad to start a new thread but since i am not sure what you really mean by base assumptions i don’t know how to make a question of the topic.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/33 "2014-02-20T21:28:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> no, it didnt. by socratic method i mean when socrates, supposedly, would say well what do you mean by justice? but how do you know that is fair? and who determines what is fair? does this apply to all situations… like that
Then if you mean calling continuously asking questions until the person you are talking to walks away wondering why they wasted their time talking to you a “win” then, yes-your version of the “Socratic Method” means you will always “win”.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/34 "2014-02-20T21:30:46Z")
And Socrates eventually got \*executed \*for it. Well, there were some trumped-up charges, but basically he’d pissed off everyone in town for the last fucking time.
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### Author:  [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/35 "2014-02-20T21:30:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> i’m still trying to learn the posting habits and rules of this site. i’d be glad to start a new thread but since i am not sure what you really mean by base assumptions i don’t know how to make a question of the topic.
You have to start somewhere. If opposing sides can agree to some fundamentals…
Think of it as blowing away the fluff to expose a skeleton which some flesh can be put on.
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/36 "2014-02-20T21:33:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Then if you mean calling continuously asking questions until the person you are talking to walks away wondering why they wasted their time talking to you a “win” then, yes-your version of the “Socratic Method” means you will always “win”.
ok, then, you seem to imply there is a proper use for it. i’m not saying their is not a proper use of it, BTW. Used correctly is the conclusion when the person gets the right answer, like a predetermined answer, or is the conclusion when the person makes their own mental breakthrough and doesn’t necessarily have to come to the same conclusion as the questioner?
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/37 "2014-02-20T21:35:42Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#):
>
> You have to start somewhere. If opposing sides can agree to some fundamentals…
> Think of it as blowing away the fluff to expose a skeleton which some flesh can be put on.
So, is it like defining terms paid worker, indentured servant and slave? Is it like defining terms like freedom, captivity and bondage? Am I on the right track or is it something else?
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### Author:  [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/38 "2014-02-20T21:44:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#):
>
> So, is it like defining terms paid worker, indentured servant and slave? Is it like defining terms like freedom, captivity and bondage? Am I on the right track or is it something else?
Going back to Socrates (plato), you start off with some concept (eg piety), and begin to examine supposed necessary and sufficient conditions for it. You may have to break it down further to find something that actually has those kinds of conditions, because the original concept is a bundle of different ones that have separate conditions. In science, an operational definition.
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### Author:  [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/39 "2014-02-20T21:46:43Z")
> [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](#):
>
> Going back to Socrates (plato), you start off with some concept (eg piety), and begin to examine supposed necessary and sufficient conditions for it. You may have to break it down further to find something that actually has those kinds of conditions, because the original concept is a bundle of different ones that have separate conditions. In science, an operational definition.
yes, but in that case the person asking the questions has to already have stuff defined. who is to say his definitions are correct?
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-socratic-method-win-any-argument/681809/40 "2014-02-20T21:49:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> And Socrates eventually got \*executed \*for it. Well, there were some trumped-up charges, but basically he’d pissed off everyone in town for the last fucking time.
The knifing method.
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