# Can the swastika be reclaimed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810 "2006-05-31T00:24:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/41 "2006-05-31T18:31:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Given that the Jews still boo to blot out the name of Haman_BOOOOO! HISSSS! Grogger noises_after more than 2000 years, I don’t think they’re likely to forget the swastika any time soon. That’s better. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/42 "2006-05-31T18:52:37Z")
As a matter of fact I think it should be legal to march there with an offensive banner. But I don’t think anyone was talking about anything remotely like that situation. And for the millionth time, attitudes should be divorced from legality. “Our country, our rules” notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/43 "2006-05-31T18:54:13Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You want the right to walk around Israel with a swastika banner? You think it’s terribly unfair the conclusions people might draw when you wave that banner around? > > Sucks to be you. Grow the fuck up and face the fact that the swastika was the symbol of a murderous tyrannical regime, and the targets of that murderous tyrannical regime aren’t likely to forget about it. > > Given that the Jews still boo to blot out the name of Haman after more than 2000 years, I don’t think they’re likely to forget the swastika any time soon. You do not state so, but I guess you’re addressing me, the OP. Where did I ask for the right you state? Let me repeat myself, > [@Agnostic Pagan](#): > > I do not expect, nor want, truth be told, for the swastika to become commonplace in Israel or the Jewish community. And I agree that we need symbols to represent bad things also. The Nazi swastika can serve that purpose without corrupting all its other uses, which have a far greater history and more widespread use than the Nazi symbol ever had. I have grown up and made the decision that I do not want to allow a “murderous tyrannical regime” that existed for a mere 25 years to overwhelm 2500 years+ of history. Face the fact that the swastika is a holy symbol for over 1 billion people of two major faiths. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/44 "2006-05-31T19:06:16Z")
:smack: I meant to use tags that would make my added text stand out as a clear addition to **Lemur866** ’s post. I was in no way attempting to violate the SDMB policy on the alteration of quoted text. Sorry bout dat. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/45 "2006-05-31T19:10:34Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > And for the millionth time, attitudes should be divorced from legality. “Our country, our rules” notwithstanding. No they shouldn’t. A country’s laws reflect the attitudes and values of its lawmakers. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/46 "2006-05-31T19:33:14Z")
In the US, it is completely legal to display a swastika, and as a citizen of the US I support this. Now, in some other countries, it is illegal to display the swastika. Germany, Austria, and France, for example. I don’t know about Israel. If you want to argue that Germany should allow both Buddhists and Nazis to display the swastika, go right ahead and argue that. But are we arguing about the legality of displaying the swastika, or the propriety of displaying the swastika? I’m totally fine with legal display of the swastika. However, this doesn’t mean people won’t draw conclusions about what meaning you are trying to convey when you display that swastika. Some of those conclusions might be accurate, some of those conclusions might be inaccurate. But that’s the chance you took when you chose to display that swastika. That symbol has several meanings, which you know full well, and expecting people to forget the association with Nazi Germany is pretty naive. And the comparison to the word “nigger” is apt. Yes, there are times and places where “nigger” is not an objectionable word, this discussion for instance. That doesn’t mean I’m going to start yelling it at the top of my lungs as I walk down the street, even in an all white neighborhood. Yeah, it’s just a word, it means what we choose for it to mean. Except the speaker of the word isn’t the only one who defines a word, the hearer of the word defines it as well, otherwise communication is impossible. So go ahead and display that swastika, if it’s that important to you. But you’re going to have to realize that your swastika display has the potential to cause a lot of hate, fear, and loathing, regardless of what you “mean” when you display it. If you feel the benefits from displaying the swastika outweigh the potential fear and hate you’ll cause in the people viewing the display, go ahead, just don’t be surprised when other people disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/47 "2006-05-31T19:48:47Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No they shouldn’t. A country’s laws reflect the attitudes and values of its lawmakers. Exactly. If they are against freedom of speech, what does that say? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/48 "2006-05-31T19:53:50Z")
**Lemur866** , you make a lot of sense, but I feel your arguments fall down a little in two ways: 1. “Nigger” always means “black person” whether the intent is racist or not. Whereas a swastika is _either_ a religious symbol - used continuously for millennia - or a symbol of irreligious Nazi hatred. 2. The number of people who don’t view the symbol as anything negative greatly outnumbers the total of Nazis who ever lived. Their usage of the swastika has never changed. Just because they happen not to be in your neck of the woods doesn’t mean their view of that symbol isn’t valid. I’m sure you’re not saying that they should have restricted freedom of worship if they do happen to live in Israel or wherever you are. Sure, someone walking around Israel with a swastika banner is going to generate needless horror, fear, upset, and hatred. But is such a symbol banned from Hindu and Buddhist temples in that country (if there are any)? How about Buddhists with swastikas innocently tattooed on their bodies - how are they to be treated - either where you are, or in Israel? BTW, until this thread, I didn’t realise that some Hindus are [campaigning about this issue](http://www.hinducounciluk.org/circular31.htm). Nor did I know - and this is just out of curiousity, and not intended to bolster any arguments here - that there is a [synagogue of archeological significance](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early%20History%20-%20Archaeology/Ein%20Gedi%20-%20An%20Ancient%20Oasis%20Settlement) in Israel with a swastika motif. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/49 "2006-05-31T20:15:27Z")
I don’t in fact know the legality of displaying a swastika in Israel. And if I were a citizen of Israel, I would advocate that it be legal to display a swastika in Israel. But just because it’s legal, or should be legal, doesn’t mean it’s WISE. It’s legal to yell “nigger” here in the US, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, even when no black people are around. But “nigger” is just a dialect version of “negro” which just means “black”, and there are plenty of countries around the world where blacks are called “negro”, and it’s not a problem. But when an American white guy complains that black people get to use the word “nigger”, and it’s RACIST that he can’t use “nigger” too, well, that white boy doesn’t get a lot of sympathy from me. Killing and eating cows is going to get you a different reaction in Texas compared to Bombay. So go ahead and display a swastika in your Indian and Chinese and Japanese Hindu/Buddhist temples, and nobody’s going to be offended. But if you have a temple in Europe, or North America, or Israel, you’ve got to consider how that display is going to be percieved. And if you’re an American white guy who’s into Buddhism and wants to display a swastika, go ahead, but you’re going to have plenty of people questioning why it’s so important to you…and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/50 "2006-05-31T20:37:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > …Killing and eating cows is going to get you a different reaction in Texas compared to Bombay. > > So go ahead and display a swastika in your Indian and Chinese and Japanese Hindu/Buddhist temples, and nobody’s going to be offended. But if you have a temple in Europe, or North America, or Israel, you’ve got to consider how that display is going to be percieved. And if you’re an American white guy who’s into Buddhism and wants to display a swastika, go ahead, but you’re going to have plenty of people questioning why it’s so important to you…and rightly so. I agree completely that the swastika has a different connotation in the areas you mention. I want that connotation to include the greater meaning that symbol has, not just its bastardization at the hands of the Nazis. And I would like to see the Western meaning change from a symbol used by hate groups to promote their filth, to symbol of remembrance and warning for what the Nazi regime did. That connection will unfortunately not be forgotten for several lifetimes, nor should it. But it should no longer inspire fear and hatred. I started this debate to gauge what it does currently inspire. And I see that most people can understand the context of how the symbol is used. I hope to display a swastika to demonstrate its, for me, true context. I do have an advantage in that I appear more South Asian than Northern European, so the likelihood of myself being asked why I am wearing that symbol is greater than being scorned for doing so, not that I have begun so, but I may depending on the responses I gather here and off-line. And the symbol will be a distinctively Eastern style. I have no intention of imitating Prince Harry. (The :wally ) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/51 "2006-05-31T20:59:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Exactly. If they are against freedom of speech, what does that say? It says that there are some things they consider more important than freedom of speech, and maybe in this case, the desire of the community as a whole not to be forced to see the symbol of an organized hate group that, within living memory, tried to exterminate the community, is one of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/52 "2006-05-31T21:01:55Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It says that there are some things they consider more important than freedom of speech, and maybe in this case, the desire of the community as a whole not to be forced to see the **symbol of an organized hate group** that, within living memory, tried to exterminate the community, is one of those things. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/53 "2006-05-31T21:03:40Z")
Meaning to say, it’s **not** , and no one should be able to tell you what your cultural symbols mean. Especially if they’re completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/54 "2006-05-31T21:15:24Z")
Hmmm. “Symbol of an organized hate group” Is a swastika a symbol? Yes. Is it the symbol of a group? Yes, the Nazis. Were these Nazis organized? Yes, they were famously organized. Did they hate? Yes indeed. Did they, within living memory, try to exterminate the Jews? That’d be another yes. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/55 "2006-05-31T21:21:43Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Meaning to say, it’s **not** , and no one should be able to tell you what your cultural symbols mean. Especially if they’re completely wrong. Germany has those laws because nobody has to tell the Germans what a swastika means. Yes, there are other, older meanings. But the Germans tend to think of a certain group that rose to power and did terrible things. You say we can’t deny what a swastika means to Buddhists or Hindus. That’s a valid point. But, we also can’t deny what it means to Jews, Romani, and every other group who were victims of the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/56 "2006-05-31T21:28:05Z")
It’s not fair when people intentionally use the symbol to remind others of the murders they wouldn’t mind being perpetrated on others. Yet there are thousands of hateful symbols that represent people who wouldn’t mind eliminating me, Joe Average White Male Liberal Catholic College Graduate, and I don’t see them being outlawed. _Realpolitic_ of electorate deciding to pass whatever goofy laws they want is one thing, morality is another. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/57 "2006-05-31T21:50:03Z")
Uh, dude, displaying a swastika is legal in America. Or are you complaining about it being illegal in Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/58 "2006-05-31T23:36:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Monty > > And ignores the simple fact that a fair number of Buddhists, to include those who tour your country, wear that symbol as a sign of their faith. > > They don’t wear it openly, Really? I’ve seen it worn openly by Asians in San Francisco, Monterey, San Diego, and a few other towns in California. Some of those wearing it were tourists, some were native born Americans. > [@](#): > > and if they do, someone will politely ask them to stop. It’s not polite, imho, to attempt to deny someone their rights. > [@](#): > > Our country, our rules. Isn’t one of those rules a freedom to practice one’s religion? > [@](#): > > I can’t object to temples in Korea having swastikas, although I admit that seeing them would make me feel uncomfortable. Get educated about it and, imho, your discomfort would be relieved. > [@](#): > > But we’e not talking about Israel here, nor are we talking about Asia. The subject of this thread is America and the West. Last I checked, California is in America and is also in the West. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Monty > > I can understand that; however, there are places in the world with large Black populations that have never had the KKK around. > > Don’t get all semantic. I was referring to African-Americans, a group with its own unique ethnic and cultural heritage. There’s nothing at wrong with Semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/59 "2006-06-01T00:37:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Uh, dude, displaying a swastika is legal in America. > > Or are you complaining about it being illegal in Germany? I wasn’t the one who brought up swastikas in Germany (or Israel for that matter.) As a matter of fact this whole thing is a hijack if _Alessan_ doesn’t support legal proscription of supported Nazi symbols in Israel. I still await a clarification of the embrace of the propriety of doing so. I don’t see a _qualitative_ difference between swastikas in Germany, Israel and America, though. There was one in postwar Germany, when there were actual Nazis around. But the percentage of the ones today who use it as a symbol of violent opposition to the current government is smaller than those who simply are racists (bad but legal,) out to shock, or religious. If swastikas are illegal in certain places, I consider it qualitively the same as if any full or partial symbols of the following to be illegal in America, as the organizations wouldn’t shed a tear if I were violently killed: – John Birch Society (anti-liberal, anti-educated, anti-non-isolationist) – The KKK (anti-“carpetbagger”, anti-Catholic, anti-Irish) – Phred (anti-non-homophobes) – Black Power (some are violently anti-white) – Jack Chick (I’m a Death Cookie gobbler) A thought for those who crow about the ability of government to crush the “evil” with the mighty heel of justice: do you see no irony in taking joy in this? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810/60 "2006-06-01T02:36:27Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If swastikas are illegal in certain places, I consider it qualitively the same as if any full or partial symbols of the following to be illegal in America, as the organizations wouldn’t shed a tear if I were violently killed: Unless Germany and Israel have a constitution identical to our own, there’s no real comparison. > [@](#): > > A thought for those who crow about the ability of government to crush the “evil” with the mighty heel of justice: do you see no irony in taking joy in this? I’m not crowing about anything. I’m just trying to get you to understand that the situation in Germany and Israel is different. You can’t legally sell a copy of Mein Kampf in Germany either. Israel is officially a Jewish State. The first ammendment of the US Constitution bans any official religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-reclaimed/358810.md?page=4)