Can the US become sustainable?

Great Debates
41

It’s like you’ve completely misunderstood my point. Are you really saying that you don’t think anything is wrong with this:

Fair enough you can make an argument that existence without physical matter is pretty pointless, and I’d agree, but in response to a concern about modern consumer culture it’s pretty stupid. So instead I took SageRat’s remark to be a defense of the pusuit of happiness through materialistic gain alone.

Therefor I was pointing out that the buying, owning and consuming of ‘stuff’ as the focus of your life is not the only way of finding fulfillment in life. Sure the things I mentioned require the products of modern society, but that ‘stuff’ is owned to allow the pursuit of other activities. It’s a clearly differrent context from the meaningless consumption of ‘lifestyle’ products. I have nothing against ‘stuff’ since I have a lot of it myself, but it is not the most important thing in life.
I must admit that I didn’t really expect anybody to be pro-trash. It’s not an attitude I’ve ever met before in the UK. Apathy sure, but maintaining that the production of all the unnecessary plastic crap is not some sort of problem is quite odd. When you live on a densely populated island that’s been in constant habitation for thousands of years maybe it gives you a different perspective. There are very few places you can go in the UK that are so remote that there isn’t a piece of plastic shit lying about.

My main bug-bear with it is the habit of people drop it anywhere they happen to be like untrained animals. There are two ways to reduce this problem: train people better and reduce the amount of trash generated (of the non-biodegradeable sort particularly). Since 2 is difficult to completely achieve we should also work on 1.

I don’t really care what you do in your own country but I don’t believe for a second that your cities are trash-free havens of cleanliness and that there is no improvement you could possibly make.

42

How are you defining trash? How did you reach the conclusion that material that people discussed buying , planned to buy , dreamt about buying and then bought is actually trash? Surely that material is valuable, not trash.

It seems to be an incredibly elitist and snobby attitude to claim that anything that other people value and plan and strive to possess is a trash just because it doesn’t fit into your value system.

43

From the OP:

No one is saying the food itself is trash. The PACKAGING is trash. What ends up in your trash bin is trash.

44

Sorry it wasn’t clear, the section of my post on trash is entirely separate from the first bit. It was in response to several posters so I didn’t include a quote which was perhaps a mistake.

And to be clear, I’m not against people wanting to buy things or as you put ‘striving’ to own things. But to have the pursuit of material possessions (and arguably things that people don’t need beyond marketing driven ‘need’) as your only focus in life is pretty shallow. I didn’t think this was a particularly controversial view.

45

If the US comes back into community with each other and accepting the earth as our mother, which as her children we are suppose to make some messes - some that we can’t clean up but our mother is willing, and accepts that all people are her children no matter what country they are in, or were born in - these are our brothers and sisters and we need the total of the human family, along with God as the head of the family, then this nation will survive.

The problem seems more of one of isolation and individuality over community. Riding in a car is fine, but using it to separate yourself from others, putting a wall of glass and metal (and plastic), is exactly opposite what the human heart needs. Wasteful packaging makes sure no other hands gets to touch your products, paper coffee cups makes it easy to get stuff to go, not stopping and talking to other people in the shop.

It is this isolation of the heart that will cause the undoing of our society, which does include isolation and disrespect of mother earth and not wanting God. We are all interdependent, and it’s designed that way, independence is ultimately death.

46

How many people actually set the attainment of material things as their only focus in life?

I’ve met many, many Americans, and don’t recall meeting any obsessed with the acquisition of stuff over all other pursuits.

47

I agree it is statistically unlikely that I am rich or middle aged. In fact I’d say that the likelyhood is 0. And…

How come I have to produce evidence, which you can then say isn’t enough and which I then according to you have to research and present to you until you are happy with it? While you can simply say something is “meaningless”.

How about I just discuss it with people who accept the premise? Works for me.

48

Which is pretty much Blake’s point.

49

Well you claim in the OP to personally remember people’s attitudes in the 80s. For that claim to have any sort of validity you must have been a minimum of 18 in 1989, or IOW you are 39 now. That’s as close to middle aged as makes no difference. If you are claiming that you, as a child, knew what people’s attitude were you OP becomes about as credible as a claim of alien abduction.

Because that is the nature of rational debate. Argumenst are weighed upon evidence and logic. When all you have is a racists screed and an anecdote that appears to be a classic and well documented perception bias, you have no argument. I that case your actual evidence has to be extremely strong. If I can poke massive holes in your “evidence” in a matter of moments, then your argument is indeed baseless and can be dismissed out of hand.

You don’t have to do anything. You can fail to support your evidence if you wish, just don’t expect anybody on these boards.

I know it does. I said precisely this in post #37. That’s the problem.

A debate requires one to start form an agreed premise and reach a conclusion. Preaching to the choir isn’t a debate, as comforting as it may be.

50

My observation too.

We stayed in Franklin Ave and walked along Hollywood Boulevard to try find the Beverly Centre. We stopped near Graummans to ask directions in a shop and they thought we were completely mad to be walking. We felt a bit like freaks when all the curious giggling assistants came to ask why were we walking when you could ride a taxi or get a bus. They couldn’t seem to get their head round it at all.
Guess that’s why they say by 2030, 86% of Americans will be obese.

Another thing that puzzles me is the Americans here in Egypt use tumble driers!!:eek:
360 days of sunshine, temperatures in the 70’s to 100’s year round.
That really is unbelievable.

51

Many housing associations, even in sunny places in America, have regulations against clotheslines (“lowers the property values”). So even if you wanted to not use a clothes drier, you can’t.

Which shouldn’t be a slam against those that want to use a clothesline, because many in America do, but still…

52

Here is a site for the idea of a closed loop economy. It is much better than my explanation.