# Can there be purpose in life without an afterlife? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189 "2005-12-05T16:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/41 "2005-12-06T01:36:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which is fine as far as it goes. Just keep in mind that the person who is remembered as a selfish prick has made a decision that is exactly equivalent to yours. Neither of you has made any difference, both your purposes are equally valid because they are equally meaningless. A purpose is a property of actions. A meaning is a property of words. It make no sense to speak of a meaning of a purpose. > [@](#): > > Why should I do nice things to other people? It will make no difference. Why shouldn’t I steal from the poor if I want to? It will make no difference. I don’t know what you mean by “It will make no difference”. Every action makes a difference in something. > [@](#): > > Since it doesn’t matter anyway. To say that nothing matters is to make a moral judgment, and is thus self-contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/42 "2005-12-06T01:53:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure, but that identical argument can be used to justify murdering someone if I feel like it. Justify to who? Not to me and I’m the only one who desides what is just. See above. [/quote] Ditto. > [@](#): > > And my point was largely that there is no way that you can disprove any other decision, nor any valid basis to argue that someone else should make a different decision. Prove to who? valid to who? If it’s valid to me it’s valid. > [@](#): > > Maybe you are happy with your subjective existence. There exists no logical way to show that I am not equally justified in murdering you. If it makes me happy, then my decision to kill you is just as valid as yours to remain alive. > And so death answers all. It makes no difference what was done to you before death once you are dead, and therefore murder is not immoral. Once again, I decide all by myself what is just and not just. It is not just for you to kill me because I say so. My say-so settles everything in my universe. > [@](#): > > There isn’t any logically valid reason not to. What difference would it make? > > So you don’t want to. What difference is there between you and someone else who _does_ want to? > > If meaning is just subjective preference, then it has no meaning to anyone besides the subject. So again, Hitler is just as valid as Gandhi. We’re going in circles. The difference between me and everybody else is that it’s MY UNIVERSE, not theirs. The purpose of life is to make the universe pleasant for ME. Anyone who thwarts that purpose is wrong by definition because I say so and I am the final authority. The funny thing about this is that everybody else feels exactly the same way. Even the decision to submit to a perceived moral authority is rooted in a completely subjective personal decision that submitting to that authoruty is the “right” thing to do. It’s not as though there’s any way to determine what is objectively “moral” anyway so all _anyone_ has is subjective morality. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/43 "2005-12-06T02:49:33Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > If a finite amount of something is worthless, then I can’t see how an infinite amount of it could be worth anything either. In math at least, it is possible for an infinite amount of “something wortheless” to be “worth something”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/44 "2005-12-06T03:31:45Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > Or, as I’d put it: > > Purpose and meaning are things created by people. Looking outside of people’s minds for some sort of objective source of meaning is doomed to failure, because meaning exists in those minds alone. The creation of meaning is, IMO, one of the most fundamental parts of the nature of humanity. I tend to think that obsession with finitude (often but not always manifesting in the form of afterlife focus) is a cop-out. I’m interested by your concepts, and I would like to suscribe to your newsletter… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/45 "2005-12-06T03:37:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Nothing seems less purposeful than sitting in stasis for eternity. An important point, I think. Assuming an eternal afterlife that would be absolute bliss, I’ve a hard time finding something that would differentiate it from stasis. Or from half a second of absolute bliss. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/46 "2005-12-06T03:41:54Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > There’s short-term “meaning” and long-term “meaning.” Short term is important, as it affects the time you spend here in your life (providing you WANT to have a life). Long-term meaning is more the big picture stuff…and I don’t think anything we conceive of or know on this planet today has any control or effect on that whatsoever. We’re less than a blip on the screen of the universe. I would disagree with that. I would tend to support the buddhist view : everything we do, even the smallest moves, has consequences on both the large scale and the long term. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/47 "2005-12-06T03:52:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then we all die, and nothing that we did makes any difference to us. (snippage…) > Shodan Well, in all probability it won’t make much difference to us. But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying it could make a difference to my kids and to future generations. And yes, I’ll be in a cold dark grave at the time. So? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/48 "2005-12-06T04:47:56Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I agree - I don’t think there’s a point to life. I don’t believe you. People’s lives are filled with purpose and points. We can’t HELP it. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/49 "2005-12-06T04:49:23Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > In math at least, it is possible for an infinite amount of “something wortheless” to be “worth something”. Explain. How is N times 0 ever anything but 0? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/50 "2005-12-06T04:54:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which is fine as far as it goes. Just keep in mind that the person who is remembered as a selfish prick has made a decision that is exactly equivalent to yours. Neither of you has made any difference, both your purposes are equally valid because they are equally meaningless. Big round of applause for our token nihilist everybody! He believes in NOOOOSHING!!! (Remember: **Do not tip the nihilists**! They hate it.) Seriously though, is there any point to your exercise here? Do you believe that life is only meaningful if there is an afterlife? Are you attacking some particular short-sighted comment made by one of the posters in particular? It seems like you are playing devils advocate here, but not obvious as to what view or purpose your sarcasm is directed towards. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/51 "2005-12-06T05:22:21Z")
“End and Goal. Not every end is the goal. The end of a melody is not its goal; and yet, as long as the melody has not reached its end, it also has not reached its goal. A parable.” Nietzche The purpose of life? To sing a little song, do a little dance, make a little love. I struggled with the same question as the OP for a long time. And then realized that the question itself is part of the purpose of life - to decide for oneself what that purpose is. And then aim for it. Life does not have any grand purpose or design, it merely is. And that is good enough for me. Yet even if life lacks meaning in the beginning, it does not mean it cannot be instilled with meaning. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Lilairen > Or, as I’d put it: > > Purpose and meaning are things created by people. Looking outside of people’s minds for some sort of objective source of meaning is doomed to failure, because meaning exists in those minds alone. The creation of meaning is, IMO, one of the most fundamental parts of the nature of humanity. I tend to think that obsession with finitude (often but not always manifesting in the form of afterlife focus) is a cop-out. I agree, and following Buddha, what is the mind that creates the meaning…I decide the purpose of my life, which is partly determining the answers to ‘I’, ‘purpose’, ‘life’, and ‘nature’. As far as any afterlife, I will deal with that when I get there. It has no bearing on my current existence. This life has plenty to offer on its own. AP ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/52 "2005-12-06T08:41:00Z")
Okay, now that my thinking is a little less impaired, I will try to explain myself a little better. Just saying that made my brain function go down a little, so we’ll see how we go. An afterlife in itself does not give life any more purpose, but I assume that an afterlife implies the existence of a God of some description who has created us to have a purpose. And also if the human race would be around forever then it might actually be worth something to improve it. And let’s say you are working for a company, and then you go work somewhere else and you say you are satisfied that you have done your part for the company. But the only reason you can be satisfied is you can remember working there and feel a sense of purpose, since purpose is a part of you. But after you die there is no more you and therefore no more purpose. Which means there was never a purpose in the first place. And **Voyager** I have not been reading existentialists before bed but I _am_ wearing a Kafka t-shirt. I still don’t understand why some people treat the death of the human race as something different from their own death because it seems to me it is just as inevitable and can be thought of as simply the death of the last human as opposed to them, the 24 352 308 134th human or something. And since everything an atheist does is ultimately for another _person_ it would no seem very productive. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/53 "2005-12-06T09:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > An afterlife in itself does not give life any more purpose, but I assume that an afterlife implies the existence of a God of some description who has created us to have a purpose. Well, that’s a pretty big addendum: why not just say that and leave the afterlife out of it in the first place? The problem being that if God created people with a purpose, then so what? Being created by somebody for a purpose just means that THEY have an intention for you. That doesn’t mean that YOU find it meaningful or find purpose in that. Purpose is still something you have to find in what you are doing. As with most things, bringing God into the equation, despite initial appearances, adds precisely nothing, gets us nowhere towards answering our questions. How does the existence of God demonstrate that a finite, or even an infinite, life, is inherently meaningful? God is a dude that is eternal, but why does that make his purposes or desires particuarly important or moral? Does power do that, in your view? Why? I don’t see how any of that helps resolve the quest for knowledge. > [@](#): > > And also if the human race would be around forever then it might actually be worth something to improve it. This makes no sense to me. Why doesn’t it make sense to improve the human condition regardless of whether we all will continue to experience existence forever? I mean, forgive me for saying this, but if you and what I’m trying to read might be Shodan’s position is correct, that really IS the ultimate sort of nihilism. If you guys don’t see the value in improving peoples lives for its own sake, instead of because of some sort of metaphysical payoff of eternity, or at least the promise that you’re actions will persist forever, then I really can’t see that you sincerely value anything in any way that I can understand. In fact, to turn this around, if there is an afterlife in which we’ll continue forever, THEN it hardly seems worth the effort to improve everything, especially since supposedly everything will all just be made/screened out to be perfect anyway? > [@](#): > > And let’s say you are working for a company, and then you go work somewhere else and you say you are satisfied that you have done your part for the company. But the only reason you can be satisfied is you can remember working there and feel a sense of purpose, since purpose is a part of you. But after you die there is no more you and therefore no more purpose. Which means there was never a purpose in the first place. What? Why is there no purpose in the first place? The fact that there is no Martin Luther King now doesn’t mean that there never was a Martin Luther King. The dude lived. Now he’s dead. But while he was here, and after he made a huge difference in people’s lives. Is that worth nothing to you just because he and all the people he affected will some day die? What the heck DO you value then? What sort of bizarre value doesn’t find meaning and value in what people do, regardless of whether it’s recorded in some sort of eternal Guiness Book of Universe Records? > [@](#): > > I still don’t understand why some people treat the death of the human race as something different from their own death because it seems to me it is just as inevitable and can be thought of as simply the death of the last human as opposed to them, the 24 352 308 134th human or something. And since everything an atheist does is ultimately for another _person_ it would no seem very productive. Dude. People are alive. NOW. Doing things affect their lives. That MEANS something to them. It doesn’t matter that they will someday die, that you will die, that no one will remember. If none of that matters, would that mean you wouldn’t mind being tortured in a cell for ten years since it doesn’t matter in the end? Does that make ANY sense? ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/54 "2005-12-06T10:14:27Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > And also if the human race would be around forever then it might actually be worth something to improve it. And let’s say you are working for a company, and then you go work somewhere else and you say you are satisfied that you have done your part for the company. But the only reason you can be satisfied is you can remember working there and feel a sense of purpose, since purpose is a part of you. But after you die there is no more you and therefore no more purpose. Which means there was never a purpose in the first place. And **Voyager** I have not been reading existentialists before bed but I _am_ wearing a Kafka t-shirt. I still don’t understand why some people treat the death of the human race as something different from their own death because it seems to me it is just as inevitable and can be thought of as simply the death of the last human as opposed to them, the 24 352 308 134th human or something. And since everything an atheist does is ultimately for another _person_ it would no seem very productive. To take your company analogy further - Sure, if I don’t remember working there, the good work I’ve done there would mean nothing to me afterwards. But while I’m there, it would be very important to me indeed. I’d be proud of my work, happy to receive compliments from my colleagues, and happy to know that I’m improving the lives of all of them it at least some small way. The thing is, if this life is all we have, that’s _exactly why_ it’s meaningful. This little block of space-time, 80-odd years across (hopefully) is the whole universe from my point of view, and I want to make it as nice a universe as possible. I can imply that other people want to have nice universes too, and do my little bit to help them achieve that. As you say, eventually there won’t be any people left so nothing will matter because there won’t be anyone for it matter _to_. I say, so what? Between now and then, there’s going to be countless people to whom the quality of life _will_ matter. I know it matters to me, and I know I’m grateful to all the people in the past who made that possible, even if they’re completely forgotten in the grand scheme of things. Why not try my best to let that continue in the future? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/55 "2005-12-06T11:16:14Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > This makes no sense to me. Why doesn’t it make sense to improve the human condition regardless of whether we all will continue to experience existence forever? I mean, forgive me for saying this, but if you and what I’m trying to read might be Shodan’s position is correct, that really IS the ultimate sort of nihilism. If you guys don’t see the value in improving peoples lives for its own sake, instead of because of some sort of metaphysical payoff of eternity, or at least the promise that you’re actions will persist forever, then I really can’t see that you sincerely value anything in any way that I can understand. Payoff? Nope. I don’t want any payoff. But the sense of having achieved something is a fallacy because if humans won’t be around forever, then everything you did _for_ humans amounts to exactly nothing. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/56 "2005-12-06T11:17:36Z")
That includes MLK, by the way. What he did for people will be irrelevant after there are no more people. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/57 "2005-12-06T11:45:51Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > …everything you did _for_ humans amounts to exactly nothing. Not from the point of view of each of us whilst we still exist. And isn’t that the only point of view that really matters? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/58 "2005-12-06T12:01:04Z")
> [@wayward](#): > > Not from the point of view of each of us whilst we still exist. And isn’t that the only point of view that really matters? No. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/59 "2005-12-06T13:37:22Z")
To put it another way: Yes, you’re right, but shouldn’t we just make the best of it anyway? I know that’s looking at things through ‘human goggles’, but what’s so bad about that? I _like_ these goggles. They really suit my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189/60 "2005-12-06T14:05:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Well, in all probability it won’t make much difference to us. But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying it could make a difference to my kids and to future generations. > > And yes, I’ll be in a cold dark grave at the time. So? So will your kids and future generations. And nothing you do will then affect them in any way. Therefore nothing you do will make **any** difference. To anyone. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Once again, I decide all by myself what is just and not just. It is not just for you to kill me because I say so. My say-so settles everything in my universe. Nonsense. I kill you, and you no longer say anything. Therefore, even by your subjective standard, it is not immoral to kill you. It wasn’t immoral for Hitler to kill the Jews, because dead people don’t object. Unless you can come up with some rational basis for your subjective judgement, you haven’t succeeded in saying anything. > [@Apos](#): > > Seriously though, is there any point to your exercise here? Do you believe that life is only meaningful if there is an afterlife? Are you attacking some particular short-sighted comment made by one of the posters in particular? It seems like you are playing devils advocate here, but not obvious as to what view or purpose your sarcasm is directed towards. What sarcasm? I am looking for logical consistency, or the admission that it doesn’t exist and that arguments about atheist morality are meaningless noises. Saying “we create our own meaing” is exactly the same as saying “there is no meaning”. Unless you can come up with some consistent, rational standard, then you can “create your own meaning” based on anything - altruism, racism, the Red Sox - _anything_ - and it is exactly as valid as anything else. Therefore, it is meaningless for atheists to say “the invasion of Iraq was immoral”, or “the government should provide universal health care”, or “it was wrong to gas the Kurds”, or “the Holocaust was not nice”. All these are begging the question. Unless you can establish some standard for morality which is better than nothing, every statement about morality is a string of noises meaning exactly nothing. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-there-be-purpose-in-life-without-an-afterlife/334189.md?page=4)