# Can Tiger get it back? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 4, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533 "2010-07-04T17:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/141 "2010-08-16T05:57:45Z")
Honestly, it’s not your local course on a Sunday afternoon. Rules are well, what’s the name of that tournament again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/142 "2010-08-16T12:34:03Z")
My point was: when does a trap cease to be a trap? Never, no matter how degraded it gets? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/143 "2010-08-16T14:14:04Z")
According to the PGA rules, that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/144 "2010-08-16T14:33:52Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Honestly, it’s not your local course on a Sunday afternoon. Rules are well, what’s the name of that tournament again? I played Publinx and you asked a rule official if you had any questions at all. There is always one available. That proves that Johnson came to the conclusion that it could not be a trap. If he had any question he would have called over the official. One walks along with the players. Each group has one. He made a serious error. At least he didn’t get DQd. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/145 "2010-08-16T14:44:51Z")
All the players were informed beforehand that all the waste sand counted as bunkers. If he didn’t read the rules sheet, that’s on him. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/146 "2010-08-16T14:54:34Z")
Someone help a know-nothing: what does “grounding one’s club” mean, and why is it not permitted in a trap? ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/147 "2010-08-16T15:04:25Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Someone help a know-nothing: what does “grounding one’s club” mean, and why is it not permitted in a trap? It refers to touching any part of the club to the ground of the hazard. You can’t do it in water hazards either (although, there grounding includes touching the water). The main reason for sand bunkers is that grounding the club leaves a nice convenient marker for the player to aim for on their downswing. As far as water hazards, I’m not sure why touching the water is an issue, since it’s not going to leave a mark, but someone more well-versed in golf could probably explain. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/148 "2010-08-16T15:07:05Z")
In a bunker it could also shift the sand and change the lie. In a water hazard, I guess sloshing the water could conceivably change the lie as well. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/149 "2010-08-16T15:14:53Z")
i think the ruling was fair but kind of utter nonsense. they basically came out and said, when in doubt consider yourself to be in a hazzard. i would have been a smart ass and asked for a ruling before each shot. even when i had a tap in on the green. twelve hour round might have shaken up the officials. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/150 "2010-08-16T15:18:59Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > The main reason for sand bunkers is that grounding the club leaves a nice convenient marker for the player to aim for on their downswing. sorry but this is utter nonsense. if i aim for where i potentially ground a club in a hazzard that puppy is coming out fat. i am looking at the base of the ball about 15 degrees inside. and shit if it is greenside and i hit it there i am going to be having a wedge coming back. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/151 "2010-08-16T15:38:59Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > i think the ruling was fair but kind of utter nonsense. > > they basically came out and said, when in doubt consider yourself to be in a hazzard. > > i would have been a smart ass and asked for a ruling before each shot. even when i had a tap in on the green. > > twelve hour round might have shaken up the officials. Actually, that would have gotten you some penalty strokes, fines and eventually disqualified. They have pace of play rules. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/152 "2010-08-16T15:57:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > i think the ruling was fair but kind of utter nonsense. > > > > they basically came out and said, when in doubt consider yourself to be in a hazzard. > > > > i would have been a smart ass and asked for a ruling before each shot. even when i had a tap in on the green. > > > > twelve hour round might have shaken up the officials. > > Actually, that would have gotten you some penalty strokes, fines and eventually disqualified. They have pace of play rules. nope. you don’t get penalized for rules officials making their rulings. you are off the clock while the rules committee decides what to do. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/153 "2010-08-16T15:58:23Z")
neta: or at least every sanctioned event i have participated in. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/154 "2010-08-16T16:02:23Z")
You may be off the clock, but if your group is out of position, the time keeping vultures are going to be timing your every swing. And if you go over the allowed time you will be subject to penalty. And your playing competitors will be timed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/155 "2010-08-16T16:04:51Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > > Someone help a know-nothing: what does “grounding one’s club” mean, and why is it not permitted in a trap? > > It refers to touching any part of the club to the ground of the hazard. You can’t do it in water hazards either (although, there grounding includes touching the water). > > The main reason for sand bunkers is that grounding the club leaves a nice convenient marker for the player to aim for on their downswing. > > As far as water hazards, I’m not sure why touching the water is an issue, since it’s not going to leave a mark, but someone more well-versed in golf could probably explain. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In a bunker it could also shift the sand and change the lie. In a water hazard, I guess sloshing the water could conceivably change the lie as well. Thanks guys. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/156 "2010-08-16T16:08:12Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > You may be off the clock, but if your group is out of position, the time keeping vultures are going to be timing your every swing. And if you go over the allowed time you will be subject to penalty. > > And your playing competitors will be timed as well. and i totally understand that. but if i was a prick i could ask for a ruling on every shot. once i ask for the ruling i go “off the clock”. theoretically you could finish 12 holes back and still be in compliance. and at a place like whistling straits if i were leading i would have had a rules official giving me a ruling on every fracking shot. i mean the rules sheet even mentions that what might otherwise be waste is a hazzard but they won’t be clearly marked. that stinks and i don’t think fair. play it safe and ask for a ruling on each shot. that would have driven cbs and the pga bat shit. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/157 "2010-08-16T16:22:01Z")
The reason for the “grounding” rule is because it is considered “testing the condition” of the hazard. You aren’t allowed to use your club of your hand to see how soft or hard the sand is, or to see how deep the water is above your ball. That is the stated reason for the rule. > [@](#): > > 13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions > Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not: > a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard; > b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or > c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/158 "2010-08-16T17:42:10Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > The reason for the “grounding” rule is because it is considered “testing the condition” of the hazard. You aren’t allowed to use your club of your hand to see how soft or hard the sand is, or to see how deep the water is above your ball. > > That is the stated reason for the rule. > > > [@](#): > > > > 13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions > > Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not: > > a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard; > > b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or > > c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard. and i totally understand the reasoning behind the rule. but where his ball ended up looked like any hard scrabble that i would encounter just playing normally. this course is a bit odd, and it seems like there would have been provisions for “between the ropes” and outside is all i am saying. i mean otherwise you just have an endless rule official scramble which seems to do little to advance the effort. otherwise just make not grounding the club a part of your mechanics. but that seems to reward waywardness. from some of the commentary that i am hearing there are bunkers on this course that are only discovered when the do a rough mow because they are overgrown. now how in the world does that qualify as a bunker? sounds more like just being in the toolies. shoot play it and go, but a penalty for grounding in those instances seems really punative unless it is clearly marked as a hazzard. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/159 "2010-08-16T17:46:52Z")
The rules were the same for everybody, and they were clearly explained in the rules sheets. I’m not seeing any unfairness. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533/160 "2010-08-16T18:00:47Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > and i totally understand the reasoning behind the rule. but where his ball ended up looked like any hard scrabble that i would encounter just playing normally. this course is a bit odd, and it seems like there would have been provisions for “between the ropes” and outside is all i am saying. i mean otherwise you just have an endless rule official scramble which seems to do little to advance the effort. otherwise just make not grounding the club a part of your mechanics. but that seems to reward waywardness. > > from some of the commentary that i am hearing there are bunkers on this course that are only discovered when the do a rough mow because they are overgrown. now how in the world does that qualify as a bunker? sounds more like just being in the toolies. shoot play it and go, but a penalty for grounding in those instances seems really punative unless it is clearly marked as a hazzard. They put a rules sheet in every player’s locker, gave one to every caddie, and posted more on the walls of the locker room. Local rule #1 was that every bunker on the course was to be played as a hazard. Johnson has admitted that he didn’t bother reading the rules. The same penalty was assessed to another player earlier in the week, and in 2004 at the same tournament on the same course, the same rules violation cost Stuart Appleby a shot at the title. There is no excuse for a professional golfer and his caddie to make that mistake. None. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-tiger-get-it-back/545533.md?page=9)