# Can Trumpists ever be forgiven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965 "2018-11-23T04:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/41 "2018-11-23T18:37:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Apology not necessary because I don’t consider your posts to be rational either. 😉 That’s fine with me. 🙂 There are some conservative posters on this board for whom I have respect as being rational in their thinking. However, I don’t think any of them are Trump supporters so they probably cannot help me understand. Maybe. I’ll wait and see if I get a response from any of them. I will say I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Really. I do. I’m being 100% sincere. I didn’t mean any offense with what I posted, just that it doesn’t help me understand. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/42 "2018-11-23T19:01:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The same difference it makes if you forgive anyone else, I guess. > What difference does it make to you when _you_ forgive others? I already know what difference it makes to me when I forgive someone, or a group of someones. I am asking the OP what difference it is going to make to her. What different actions will she take? If it is just “I will hate for the rest of my life”, OK, but then what happens that is different from forgiving? IOW, fill in the blank. “Because I am not going to forgive you, I am going to do \_\_\_\_\_ and I will never do \_\_\_\_\_\_\_”. What will happen as a result of “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_”, and what do you hope to happen, and how will that be brought about? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/43 "2018-11-23T19:04:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I already know what difference it makes to me when I forgive someone, or a group of someones. I am asking the OP what difference it is going to make to her. What different actions will she take? > > If it is just “I will hate for the rest of my life”, OK, but then what happens that is different from forgiving? > > IOW, fill in the blank. “Because I am not going to forgive you, I am going to do \_\_\_\_\_ and I will never do \_\_\_\_\_\_\_”. What will happen as a result of “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_”, and what do you hope to happen, and how will that be brought about? > > Regards, > Shodan Thanks for the assignment, Teach, but I’m just editing this class. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/44 "2018-11-23T19:50:54Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Nixon declared war on his enemies. By which I mean us, anybody who wasn’t a Nixonite. Sound familiar? > > No, I’ve never forgiven him or the Silent Majority that actively aided and abetted him and are the progenitors of today’s Trumpettes. > > We lost that last battle. But we seem to be learning some lessons about how to fight this one. Yes, it’s not about forgiving wrongdoers, it’s about moving battle lines. In Germany, Nazism was purged after 1945. Assuming the US doesn’t fall into authoritarianism, Trumpism will persist well into the 2020s. The struggle for reality-based policy, democracy on election day, and the marginalization of bigotry will be ongoing until the GOP collapses or the Rockefeller Republicans regain control. “Regain control? They were extinguished years ago!” Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/45 "2018-11-23T19:55:53Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > What I cannot understand is why he continues to have any support from any rational person? Trump voters are human. Humans are **capable** of rational thought. None of us is entirely rational. A lot of our thinking and decisions is driven by irrational heuristics below the level of conscious though. Even when we’re engaging at a more rational level those irrational predispositions tend to shape the result. I can see a number of cognitive biases in [this list](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases) that seem to have some application to the situation. Like Arthur Dent in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, I am a monkey man. Aside from the gendering so are Trump voters. So are Clinton voters. The entirely rational person just doesn’t seem to exist unless they’re living with Bigfoot and Elvis. We’re all a mix of the irrational and rational. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/46 "2018-11-23T21:16:40Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Never forgive, never forget. Harry, harass and harangue them unto the third generation. Let them all be sent swordless to Palestine. > > Vendetta doesn’t even _begin_ to cover it. Consider making them wear distinctive robes and head coverings, along with little leper bells so the righteous folk know when they’re approaching. For those who can’t wait for the glorious day when Trump is cast into darkness, write an open (or actual) letter to the abominable Trumpists, warning them what’s in store and [hinting at possible mercy](http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/3258969/posts) if they renounce him _right now_. _“And so I’m offering you a way out. A complete and unconditional surrender. You can’t ask what we’re going to do to you. You’re just going to have to trust in our good graces. Maybe sometime in the distant future your children and family might believe you had a shred of courage if you act at this very moment. But the time for choosing is drawing near. Choose wisely.”_ ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/47 "2018-11-23T21:22:09Z")
BeepKillBeep: > [@](#): > > Yes, in my opinion, given what Trump and the Republicans currently represent. Making a political choice is always going to be about balancing wanting something and having to give up something else to get it. What, precisely, are they giving up? > [@](#): > > To me, if a person cares about the country as a whole, then they cannot support Trump and the Republicans as they are right now. What are the alternatives for a “rational” conservative? By the time the 2016 presidential primaries/conventions were over, Kasich and Cruz And Rubio and the “rational” choices (that is, they seem rational NOW…wanna bet that they’d be painted as irrational if one of them had been elected?) were not available options. There was Trump, and there was Clinton. Given their policy positions, Clinton was surely the inferior choice for conservative voters, rational or otherwise. > [@](#): > > I would love it, if a rational conservative could explain to me how Trumpism is worth any single (or few) conservative issue(s)? How exactly is it a single, or even just a few, issues? Just on the court appointing matter, it impacts abortion rights, gay rights, labor unionism, free speech (with money involved), religious freedom, criminal justice and executive vs legislative control over immigration, diplomacy and military. That’s a heck of a lot of issues. There are also any number of other issues on which rational conservatives have way more in common with Trump than with any potential Democratic alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/48 "2018-11-23T22:00:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I would love it, if a rational conservative could explain to me how Trumpism is worth any single (or few) conservative issue(s)? If candidate X will act as a voter wants on one issue, and candidate Y will act as a voter wants on zero issues, what is the rational choice? Regards. Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/49 "2018-11-23T22:01:36Z")
I made this statement a while back, and I still stand by it: > [@Question For Republicans: If Trump is elected...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-republicans-if-trump-is-elected/760420/28): > > I think Trump winning would be a net plus but only if measured a particular way. It’s not because of any particular policy position or anything though. I think Trump will be ineffective, so whatever BS he pushes will likely not be enacted and will not have far reaching consequence. I think Clinton will actually be effective so what she pushes has a good chance to come to pass. > > I think the way most people are comparing the two misses this reality - it’s not just about who’s policy or other positions are better or worse, it also matters who will be more effective in enacting their agenda. > > So evaluating the two based on expected return and not simply based on the merits of their positions, and given that I want the federal government to do as little as possible, it tips the scales for Trump. Trump is still a dumbass though. So far two SCOTUS appointments and I’m glad. If RBG or Breyer were to retire and there was a third appointment, I’d call that a great win. Trump in my view is a dumpster fire, but there need not be perfect candidates to advance an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/50 "2018-11-23T22:02:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Forgiveness is a moot point. I feel like a better question would be, can we ever trust their intellect, morality, or whatever they state their intentions are? No, absolutely not. > > I can co-exist with people knowing they’re dumb or mean or fixated on “the deficit” for whatever reason (budget or trade? “hurrr, ya know, that thar one where Obama did the socialism?”). I can forgive people who were hoodwinked by a sophisticated propaganda machine. But never, ever will I ever trust what they think or say. Never, ever will I respect their “values” knowing half of them were installed by Fox News. Never, ever will I trust anybody who so deeply lacked an adult understanding of “the establishment” that they believed all the “Flight 93 election” bullshit. > > Nope. All I have is my vote, but I vote to send them all to sit at the political kids table forever. Pretty much. Being a Trump supporter is like being an anti vaxxer. It shows you aren’t someone whose opinions are well thought out and not someone that people are obligated to offer default respect for your views. If anyone can look at Trump, and how he acts and still support him, then there is some defect in them. Either their capacity for responsibility, compassion, morality, belief in western values, etc is deficient. One of those is defective to be a Trump supporter. You can’t be an informed, civil, responsible citizen of a democracy, and also be a Trump supporter. Something on that list has to be missing. I know it adds to divisiveness, but it’s still true. And I’ve never felt this way about any political candidate before. And it’s not because Trump is a republican because he was a Democrat for decades before that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/51 "2018-11-23T22:10:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Apology not necessary because I don’t consider your posts to be rational either. 😉 People have pointed out trumps failings to you and you don’t seem to address them. The way he is being controlled by foreign powers (Russia and possibly Saudi Arabia). He is probably being bribed and blackmailed to putting America’s interests second to his own (aka treason). We need multiple legitimate investigations. His hatred of democracy and what it stands for. Voting rights, civil rights, human rights, free press, freedom to protest, independent law enforcement, independent judiciary. His adulation of Dictators and his hatred of democracy are troubling. His preying on the worst in people. Their racism, sexism, religious bigotry, etc. His gross incompetence, profound stupidity and inability to handle responsibility. Not to mention the immorality of electing a narcissistic sex offender (and yes Clinton did bad stuff too, and he should be investigated for it). The level of crime and corruption is unprecedented. We explain to you why we are upset and you ignore and and act like ‘hurr durr the liberals are triggered’. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/52 "2018-11-23T22:23:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > People have pointed out trumps failings to you and you don’t seem to address them. > > The way he is being controlled by foreign powers (Russia and possibly Saudi Arabia). He is probably being bribed and blackmailed to putting America’s interests second to his own (aka treason). … This isn’t pointing out a failing. This is an example of believing in conspiracy theories. I don’t feel any need to “address” it because it seems so self-evidently unhinged to me that I’m confident that reasonable readers can see if for the nonsense that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/53 "2018-11-23T22:36:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This isn’t pointing out a failing. This is an example of believing in conspiracy theories. I don’t feel any need to “address” it because it seems so self-evidently unhinged to me that I’m confident that reasonable readers can see if for the nonsense that it is. Nonsense that is being investigated by the ex-head of the FBI and the best legal team in America. Nonsense that the other head of the FBI (comey) refused to discuss in public before congress, and nonsense that MI6s top spy in Russia said was such a major issue he worked on a report on it for free. Yep all nonsense. What would the FBI know about crime. I noticed you ignored all the other issues too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/54 "2018-11-23T22:40:04Z")
What _evidence_ do you have that President Trump is “being controlled” by Saudi Arabia? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/55 "2018-11-23T22:49:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If candidate X will act as a voter wants on one issue, and candidate Y will act as a voter wants on zero issues, what is the rational choice? > > Regards. > Shodan The rational choice is to not be the sort of person who makes decisions based upon only one issue. If you don’t care about the economy, or minority rights, or human rights at all for that matter, if you don’t care about loss of standing in the world, if you don’t care about increased violence in death both here and abroad, if you don’t care about not rewarding those who prey upon others, who use divisiveness to drive their selfish desires, and all it is is one issue that you care about, and the rest of the world can go to hell, then you are not rational. > [@Bone](#): > > I made this statement a while back, and I still stand by it: > > So far two SCOTUS appointments and I’m glad. If RBG or Breyer were to retire and there was a third appointment, I’d call that a great win. Trump in my view is a dumpster fire, but there need not be perfect candidates to advance an agenda. So, no matter what Trump does, so long as he continues to appoint people like Kavanaugh who will act as an activist on the court to ensure and expand your (and every criminal’s) ability to have a gun, you are just fine with anything he does? If there any size that the dumpster fire would have to get to before you felt that maybe it wasn’t a net positive? Perfection may be the enemy of the good, but so is bad. Would it actually have to effect _you_ personally? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/56 "2018-11-23T23:18:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What _evidence_ do you have that President Trump is “being controlled” by Saudi Arabia? > **[Trump said he has 'no financial interests in Saudi Arabia.' But his...](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-saudi-arabia-financial-interests-ties-hotel-bookings-sales-2018-10)** > > President Trump claimed to have "no financial interests in Saudi Arabia," but the Trump Organization has made millions from the Saudi government. There need to be multiple legitimate investigations into whether Trump’s ties to saudi Arabia are related to why he sides with the Saudi Arabian prince over US intelligence agencies. Right now we just have probable cause that Trump is committing treason due to bribes. That is why we need multiple investigations. Some of which will start in the house in 2019. Trump will be investigated dozens of times by dozens of agencies over the coming decades. Right now we are just starting the investigations. The fact that your side just dismisses these issues out of hand is another bothersome issue. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/57 "2018-11-23T23:45:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > . . . > > You obviously perceive the “cost” of a Trump administration as much higher than many conservatives do. . . What’s the “cost” . . .? The cost? Can you really not appreciate what is happening to your society as a cost? An intolerable cost? (I take you wouldn’t be interested in the ‘cost’ to the world) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/58 "2018-11-23T23:48:25Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Trump in my view is a dumpster fire, but there need not be perfect candidates to advance an agenda. I feel like at some point, a self-aware person would sit back reflect upon the fact of: “What is my agenda, actually, that it inevitably needs to be advanced by a politician who is a dumpster fire and/or venal self-serving shitbag? If I find myself repeatedly carrying water for such people, what does that say about me or my agenda?” I feel like at some point a self-aware person would observe that, in historical reflection, in 1960 “minimal federal government” meant preserving Jim Crow, and in 1860 it meant preserving slavery. If I wanted to have an intellectual tenable position then I would really want to be able to clearly explain when and why “minimal federal government” got on board with the idea that states couldn’t enslave people, or deny their civil rights, nor suppress their ability to organize politically. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/59 "2018-11-23T23:51:34Z")
So far the only things that it seems like conservatives are pointing to with pride are the economy (Obama’s recovery continuing), destruction of regulations (fuck the environment, we want to save money), and Supreme Court appointments (everlasting fealty to The Second Half Of The Second Amendment and a firm belief that American murderers need to be the best-equipped murderers in the world). Little picayune details about the rise of bigotry, racism, and fascism are small prices to pay as long as the disproven trickle down theory is trotted out once more and mass shootings continue. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/60 "2018-11-23T23:57:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … Right now we just have probable cause that Trump is committing treason due to bribes. … I take it you’re not using the standard definition of “probable cause”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965.md?page=4)