# Can Trumpists ever be forgiven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965 "2018-11-23T04:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/81 "2018-11-24T14:38:46Z")
On election night, 2016 I said, “I will never forgive Trump voters”. Since then, I have seen zero evidence to make me change this proclamation. I keep seeing articles that seem to want to let them off the hook by claiming they have been “brainwashed” by Fox, right-wing radio and not job internet sites. I call bullshit. [ul] [li]You have been convinced that Soros is a secret Nazi who funds all the librul evilness.[/li][li]You have been convinced that Hillary is a murderer and a hideous pedophile.[/li][li]You’ve been convinced that anyone with darker skin is up to no good to varying degrees.[/li][li]You’ve been convinced that the asshole-dipshit in the white house is some kind of hero-genius that will save the day.[/li][/ul] In order to be convinced of any of this, you have to already have hate in your heart. Hate is the one ingredient you have to have to make this kind of obvious bullshit take hold. You have to _want_ to go there. None of this propaganda will work unless you _invite_ it. Hate is a goddamn choice. There is not a defense for this. No forgiveness. Everyone who voted for the Orange Menace was an adult. There have been dire consequences for many, many people because these people chose hate. They can all go straight to hell. I won’t miss any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/82 "2018-11-24T14:44:06Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > On election night, 2016 I said, “I will never forgive Trump voters”. Since then, I have seen zero evidence to make me change this proclamation. As I have asked a couple of times, so what? What are you going to do, or not do, because you won’t forgive Trump voters? > [@](#): > > No forgiveness. Everyone who voted for the Orange Menace was an adult. There have been dire consequences for many, many people because these people chose hate. They can all go straight to hell. I won’t miss any of them. So Trump voters are going to be condemned to hell. I didn’t know you were the one to decide. So they are going to hell, you will never forgive them, and they are the ones who chose hate. Hmm. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/83 "2018-11-24T15:08:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So, the Russians wanted him to go to Germany and convince them their reliance on Russian natural gas was a bad idea and they should upgrade their ports for North American tankers? And Trump’s push for more money into the US military was also a Russian request? It appears to me that he’s doing the exact opposite of what Russia wants. His refusal to enforce sanctions against Russia passed by congress is a pretty good example of him putting Russia’s interests above Americas. > **[Despite Law, President Trump Refuses To Enforce Sanctions Against Russia |...](https://www.heinrich.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/despite-law-president-trump-refuses-to-enforce-sanctions-against-russia)** > > WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Martin Heinrich (D-N.M.), a member of the Senate Select Committee on... > **[Review | Signs of Trump-Putin collaboration, starting years before the campaign?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/is-there-a-case-for-trump-putin-collaboration-years-before-the-campaign/2018/08/16/00578f1e-9440-11e8-80e1-00e80e1fdf43_story.html?utm_term=.65dae52b84c5)** > > Craig Unger argues that Trump may have given Putin information on Russian oligarchs’ activities in the U.S. > [@](#): > > Unger believes that Trump was compromised by Russia as early as the 1980s, when the Russian money laundering through his properties probably began. “It’s hard to imagine Donald Trump had no knowledge whatsoever about what was going on,” Unger writes, as hundreds of millions in Russian investment flowed into Trump’s coffers. Trump evinced an “eagerness to turn a blind eye to practices that allowed the Russian mob to launder money,” Unger continues. This, among other things, is why we need multiple legitimate investigations into Trump. We had 7 investigations into Benghazi and not a single indictment. We’ve had 0 investigations into Trump that have run to completion. But of the handful of investigations we have had so far (the NY AG investigation, the SDNY investigation, the Mueller probe) we’ve already had dozens of indictments. We need dozens of investigations into Trump, his family and the republicans who are covering up his crimes. These investigations need to be done on the federal, state and local level and they need to be redundant and very thorough. They also need to cover Trump and his entire family from birth until the present. Anything that comes up must be investigated thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/84 "2018-11-24T15:19:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t agree with others that there is strong evidence of Trump being controlled by Russia… Bravo! Someone from the left was finally able to disagree, albeit mildly, with that idiotic conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/85 "2018-11-24T15:22:06Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … > We need dozens of investigations into Trump, his family and the republicans who are covering up his crimes. These investigations need to be done on the federal, state and local level and they need to be redundant and very thorough. They also need to cover Trump and his entire family from birth until the present. Anything that comes up must be investigated thoroughly. We don’t generally investigate people “from birth until the present” in this country. We investigate specific suspected crimes. Do you understand why that is? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/86 "2018-11-24T15:26:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We don’t generally investigate people “from birth until the present” in this country. We investigate specific suspected crimes. Do you understand why that is? We investigate any crime that may have happened. I believe Trump and his family need to be investigated over their entire lives, not just starting when he assumed the presidency in 2016. There is speculation Trump’s ties to Russia go back to the 1980s, and speculation his tax fraud goes back further than that. So that all needs to be investigated. Only investigating issues from 2016 onward will not constitute a full investigation into Trump and his family. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/87 "2018-11-24T15:27:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > What do you think of Trump’s appointments? DeVos, Pruitt, Bolton, Whitaker, Carson, Ross, Miller, Zinke? Is it the GOP view that the more incompetent and corrupt the top official, the better? Incompetence helps reduce governance, and Starves the Beast? > > Is it good to have a fraudster in the White House? If he can fool thousands into attending “Trump University” he can fool Putin and the Saudis to bend to American wishes? Tax cuts for the rich are what the poor need — it will trickle down? Despoiling the earth and its climate are unimportant — the End Days are nigh? > > I am not entirely certain you’ve given sober thought to these questions. > … Generally, I’m okay with many / most of President Trump’s appointments. And while there are some of President Trump’s personal shortcomings that I dislike, I’m generally pleased that he is the one living in the White House rather that Hillary Clinton. That’s a conclusion I’ve come to after some not-insignificant amount of reflection on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/88 "2018-11-24T15:28:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > We investigate any crime that may have happened. I believe Trump and his family need to be investigated over their entire lives, not just starting when he assumed the presidency in 2016. > > There is speculation Trump’s ties to Russia go back to the 1980s, and speculation his tax fraud goes back further than that. So that all needs to be investigated. Only investigating issues from 2016 onward will not constitute a full investigation into Trump and his family. So that’s a “no” then? Do you understand that “speculation” is not a valid basis for an investigation? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/89 "2018-11-24T15:40:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I have asked a couple of times, so what? What are you going to do, or not do, because you won’t forgive Trump voters?So Trump voters are going to be condemned to hell. I didn’t know you were the one to decide. > > So they are going to hell, you will never forgive them, and they are the ones who chose hate. Hmm. > > Regards, > Shodan We don’t actually decide who goes to hell, in my religion. Yours may differ of course. In my religion anybody can go to heaven, **as long as they are sorry for what they did.** ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/90 "2018-11-24T15:55:11Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I made this statement a while back, and I still stand by it: > So far two SCOTUS appointments and I’m glad. If RBG or Breyer were to retire and there was a third appointment, I’d call that a great win. Trump in my view is a dumpster fire, but there need not be perfect candidates to **advance an agenda**. Bolding mine. What then is this **agenda** that you appear to support? What are your opinions on free speech and freedom of the press? What are your thoughts about equal rights? What do you think about separation of church and state? How about climate change? Should we address that? Do any of the above matter to you? Do you think this administration is addressing these issues with an eye to what is best for our country? Or in the case of climate change, the world? You want more conservative justices. OK. What do you want them to do? ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/91 "2018-11-24T16:26:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I have asked a couple of times, so what? What are you going to do, or not do, because you won’t forgive Trump voters?So Trump voters are going to be condemned to hell. I didn’t know you were the one to decide. > > So they are going to hell, you will never forgive them, and they are the ones who chose hate. Hmm. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m going to shun them. I don’t associate with any of them any more. I’m an atheist. I \*wish \*there were a hell so I \*could \*condemn them to it, but my sending them to hell is completely meaningless. It’s my wish and if wishes were fishes… Ooooh, it’s ME who is the hater.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/92 "2018-11-24T16:39:52Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > On election night, 2016 I said, “I will never forgive Trump voters”. Since then, I have seen zero evidence to make me change this proclamation…They can all go straight to hell. I won’t miss any of them. _“The (American National Election Survey) data show that just over 13% of Trump’s voters backed Obama in 2012”_ > **[Just How Many Obama 2012-Trump 2016 Voters Were There? - Sabato's Crystal Ball](https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/)** > > In the immediate aftermath of the 2016 presidential election, many observers understandably focused on the numerous places that swung from Barack Obama to Donald Trump. Because many of these areas congregated in swing states within the Rust Belt and... Sending Trump voters the message that they’re all abominable wretches who can never be forgiven, might not be the best way to woo them back to supporting Trump’s opponent in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/93 "2018-11-24T16:49:48Z")
After reading the answers on this thread my question would be, why even try to apologise? If most won’t forgive you and the rest want medieval levels of penance and abjuration, what’s the point? They won’t listen to any of your valid reasons, they think you’re either stupid or evil. Never apologise to people like that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/94 "2018-11-24T16:57:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So that’s a “no” then? Do you understand that “speculation” is not a valid basis for an investigation? suspicion then. What matters is we will see dozens of investigations over the coming years into Trump, his family and the republicans in congress who may have helped obstruct justice. The legal barrier to conducting an investigation are low, and Trump and his family have surpassed it. Plus as an added bonus, each investigation seems to give birth to new suspected crimes. Mueller’s investigation led to the SDNY investigating Cohen. Trumps obstruction of justice opened up new investigations. There is ample reason to believe the Trump family is a criminal syndicate and the republicans in congress are covering it up. Every last hint of this needs to be investigated as thoroughly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/95 "2018-11-24T16:59:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _“The (American National Election Survey) data show that just over 13% of Trump’s voters backed Obama in 2012”_ > > [Just How Many Obama 2012-Trump 2016 Voters Were There? - Sabato's Crystal Ball](http://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/) > > Sending Trump voters the message that they’re all abominable wretches who can never be forgiven, might not be the best way to woo them back to supporting Trump’s opponent in 2020. I’m completely uninterested in trying to woo them back. Trying to reason with them is pointless. If they don’t have enough sense not to vote for him again without somehow being wooed to do so then they just aren’t reachable and should be left to fester in their own filthy hate. ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/96 "2018-11-24T17:02:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > After reading the answers on this thread my question would be, why even try to apologise? > If most won’t forgive you and the rest want medieval levels of penance and abjuration, what’s the point? > They won’t listen to any of your valid reasons, they think you’re either stupid or evil. > Never apologise to people like that. Who wants an apology? There is not enough sorry in the world to make up for this abomination. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/97 "2018-11-24T17:03:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _“The (American National Election Survey) data show that just over 13% of Trump’s voters backed Obama in 2012”_ > > [Just How Many Obama 2012-Trump 2016 Voters Were There? - Sabato's Crystal Ball](http://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/) > > Sending Trump voters the message that they’re all abominable wretches who can never be forgiven, might not be the best way to woo them back to supporting Trump’s opponent in 2020. I agree. Most of my Wife’s family are Trump supporters. We get along fine if politics are not brought up. These are educated people. But Trumps admin is helping their specific businesses it seems (oil). Nothing else matters I suppose. Anywho, we visited them about two months ago and the Trump banners where gone. They didn’t bring it up, nor did my wife or I. If they want to talk about it. Fine. I suspect that any reasonable Trump supporter will stew in their own shame. I’m ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/98 "2018-11-24T17:30:55Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > After reading the answers on this thread my question would be, why even try to apologise? > If most won’t forgive you and the rest want medieval levels of penance and abjuration, what’s the point? > They won’t listen to any of your valid reasons, they think you’re either stupid or evil. > Never apologise to people like that. Valid reasons? This guy could literally shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and we would still hear about his great SCOTUS appointments. If you can look past his illiterate incompetence, his curroption, his boarder policies, his attacks on the courts, the press, and the environment, shooting some random person on the street isn’t really so bad, is it? Lots of people are shot every day, we don’t expect our President to be a saint. But he says a lot of stuff we like. Fuck criminals, fuck immigrants, fuck wind power, and fuck everyone that doesn’t want America to be great again! If someone can read the White House statement on the murder of the Saudi journalist and not feel that America has lost its way, then all hope is truly lost. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/99 "2018-11-24T17:42:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > … his illiterate incompetence, his curroption, his boarder policies… Oh the irony. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965/100 "2018-11-24T17:46:53Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Valid reasons? This guy could literally shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and we would still hear about his great SCOTUS appointments. If you can look past his illiterate incompetence, his corruption, his boarder policies, his attacks on the courts, the press, and the environment, shooting some random person on the street isn’t really so bad, is it? Lots of people are shot every day, we don’t expect our President to be a saint. Speaking of that, Trump blames the world for the killing of the reporter, Saudis in power excluded. I have to point out here also how corrosive is the position of men of faith supporting Trump. Sure, the ones that are smart do tell themselves that in the bible God can use bad people to do good. Unfortunately for that view, it ignores that not only young people do become alienated from old time religion when they see hypocrisy x100, when they see how religious leaders continue to embrace a guy that embodies the seven deadly sins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-trumpists-ever-be-forgiven/824965.md?page=6)