# Can US soldiers be charged with "war crimes"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940 "2003-09-01T08:05:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/61 "2003-09-03T12:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\ ***Monty,** lets take another example from NI: > > decide instead to ram the road block and attempt to drive through it. An inexperienced (English) soldier seeing a car _head straight for a colleague_ opens fire to attempt to stop the vehicle. He accidentally hits one of the joy-riders passengers, a girl named Karen Reilly. [She dies.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,190513,00.html) > > Do you still think _“Where’s the crime?”_. \*\* Yes, I still think “where’s the crime”. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/62 "2003-09-03T12:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*So you agree that they were manning a checkpoint in a combat zone? So you agree that a vehicle failed to stop? So what do you expect the military do–say, hey, that’s one fish that got away? My family’s not prone to running police checkpoints, so I seriously doubt anyone in my family would’ve run a checkpoint in a combat zone? > > Nice strawman though. \*\* Monty, you racist. YOUR lilly-white family might have learnt that it is not nice to barrel through police barricades, but as the racist histrionic left has taught us, the unwashed brown people of the world are too fucking stupid to know to stop in such situations. So of course the evil aryans should be strung up accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/63 "2003-09-03T12:37:51Z")
Where in hell did that rant just come from? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/64 "2003-09-03T12:45:27Z")
**zuma** that’s not the point at all and you fucking well know it. These people weren’t barreling though anything they just misunderstood what was required of them. The poor fuckers are dead. Should there not be a way for them to try and get some compensation? If the soldiers did nothing wrong and the procedures are correct what’s there to worry about? > [@](#): > > As they approached another checkpoint 40km south of Karbala, they waved again at the American soldiers. > > “We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe,” Hassan said through an Army translator at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital set up at a vast Army support camp near Najaf. > > The soldiers didn’t wave back. They fired. > > “I saw the heads of my two little girls come off,” Hassan’s heavily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said numbly. > > She repeated herself in a flat, even voice: “My girls - I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead.” [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962796085.html](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962796085.html) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/65 "2003-09-03T14:21:23Z")
Beats the hell out of me, Aro. I don’t know WTF zuma has the stupidity to call me a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/66 "2003-09-03T14:39:33Z")
was using heavy sarcasm to support your point, **Monty.** > [@](#): > > … **as the racist histrionic left has taught us,** the unwashed brown people of the world are too fucking stupid to know to stop in such situations. **So of course the evil aryans should be strung up accordingly.** I’m still for paying the families a structured settlement. “Next!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/67 "2003-09-03T14:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Beats the hell out of me, Aro. I don’t know WTF zuma has the stupidity to call me a racist. \*\* I think **Zuma** ’s post was an attack on **Aro** ’s position and not yours. S/he wasn’t really calling you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/68 "2003-09-03T15:44:48Z")
**Zuma** is probably **Monty** ’s alter ego. Hahaha… get it? **Montyzuma**? Ha ha…ha? uhm well… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/69 "2003-09-03T16:32:58Z")
BS, Beagle. “Monty, you racist” is a direct accusation that I, Monty, am a racist. It’s also untrue that I am a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/70 "2003-09-03T16:35:32Z")
Not that I’m saying you’re BS, Beagle. Just that zuma’s “point” is. On the thread’s topic: I really don’t see why someone should get prosecuted for what I guess would be called “justifiable homicide” or “self defense” for acting on what they believed to be a reasonable action. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/71 "2003-09-03T16:41:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*BS, Beagle. “Monty, you racist” is a direct accusation that I, Monty, am a racist. It’s also untrue that I am a racist. \*\* Yes,but when s/he says “Monty, you racist”, in this case, it’s intended to be considered tongue in cheek. S/he was not actually saying that you were a racist, but setting up a satiric straw man. S/he does not apparently believe that it is actually racist to expect people to stop at roadblocks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/72 "2003-09-03T18:28:58Z")
Maybe. I’ll believe it when I read it from zuma. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/73 "2003-09-03T18:44:02Z")
Oh, and zuma: If I’ve been whooshed, then I’ve been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/74 "2003-09-03T23:11:00Z")
Personally, I steer clear of the _heavy_ sarcasm. Throwing around insults like that in jest is risky business. Best to hang around to explain it. Or, rely on the handy smilie collection. I don’t see how, taken as a whole, that post was a shot at you **Monty.** OTOH, I don’t see this as a left versus right thing. The debate seemed to be going pretty smoothly, then a post like that can cause brakes screeching sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/75 "2003-09-03T23:36:25Z")
Well, I’m going to go with you on this, Beagle and consider that I’ve been whooshed. I don’t see it as a left vs. right thing, either. I see it as a fair vs. unfair thing for the person who had to pull a trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/76 "2003-09-04T07:58:32Z")
FWIW, I also thought **Zuma** was having a go at me, not you, **Monty**. My surprise was at the idea that someone reading the thread actually thought I was suggesting something like '_those poor brown Iraqis are too dumb to know better, so we should punish the whitie soldiers’_ or some such toss. Quite incredible, really. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > **I see it as a fair vs. unfair thing for the person who had to pull a trigger.** I’ll agree with that. There are no winners here. It’ll be (I guess) a difficult thing to live with, killing a civilian in war time. I’m sure the soldier did his job, as well as may have been expected in the situation. On the flip side, it will also be difficult to _(and unfair to suggest they should)_ just live with the death of loved ones who wanted no part in any armed conflict. Iraqi families pain counts too, and this unfortunate situation could be best resolved with acknowledgement of this fact from US authorities. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/77 "2003-09-04T10:02:38Z")
I am with Aro and find it despicable to blame the victims. It is quite clear they were a family who were NOT trying to do anything foul, just misunderstood what was wanted of them. The idea that you can just call out “stop!” and then fire is ludicrous and uncivilised. Deadly force should be used only when strictly necessary and the US forces had many ways of stopping traffic which did not involve deadly force. How about just crossing a truck or two on the road? There is ample evidence that the US forces did not act reasonably, including their own commanding officer who said they had killed a family unnecessarily. There is plenty of evidence to warrant an investigation. War is not a justification for killing anyone who might be in the way. I am not saying the soldiers are directly responsible, maybe they are not but it is the responsibility of the higher ups to organise things right and if you are incable of doing things right then don’'t go around invading other countries. That family did not deserve to die and blaming them is despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/78 "2003-09-04T10:16:30Z")
FTR, In not blaming the soldiers for opening fire, I’m not automatically putting the blame on the victims. There apparently was a situation where both parties misjudged the situation they were in. Be that because it was not made clear enough that it was a roadblock or that the victims didn’t know how to behave or whatever… It just goes way too far to equate this tragic event with a warcrime. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/79 "2003-09-04T11:00:46Z")
There is no evidence whatsoever that these people were wantonly killed for no reason. The evidence seems to point in the direction of poor planning and execution on the part of the US forces and it is enough evidence to warrant an investigation to determine if there was criminal negligence on the part of the soldiers and/or on the part of the higher-ups. In any case the US should be civilly liable and compensate the families. It is the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940/80 "2003-09-04T11:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Maybe. I’ll believe it when I read it from zuma. \*\* My apologies, Monty, it was indeed an attempt at sarcasm, not aimed at you. And I didn’t really do a very good job at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-us-soldiers-be-charged-with-war-crimes/198940.md?page=3)