# can vegetarians eat beef broth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001 "2015-01-16T17:57:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/41 "2015-01-21T00:50:40Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’d be interested in a chemist’s analysis of this. Can a firm line be drawn between broths that originated with an animal and one that originated from a vegetable? If so, what is the chemical difference, and how distinct is it? Animal stock (or broth) is basically melted protein, and there are all sorts of difference between plant and animal protein. One of the single most abundant proteins in an animal is collagen, which makes up most of the connective tissue. Even in muscle tissue (i.e. meat) that makes up a broth, there’s a lot of collagen holding together all of the muscle cells. Wiki sez that something like ~30% of protein in your body. I’d WAG that a very large majority of protein in stock or broth is collagen, since the meat (mostly actin and myosin from muscle cells) doesn’t dissolve even after many hours. I can think of all sorts of biochemical tests to identify any specific protein, but most of what I know are very sensitive and specific methods. I’d wager that there’s some sort of old-school biochemistry that can positively identify collagen. Off the top of my head I don’t know precisely what makes up a vegetable stock, but plants certainly don’t have any collagen. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/42 "2015-01-21T01:59:53Z")
It depends on the vegetarian. I have a Hindu friend who would not ever knowingly consume beef broth. However, when it comes to soups made with chicken broth (but no actual meat in the soup), she has a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. She decided that she wanted soup more than she wanted to avoid the possibility of chicken broth in soup at the office cafeteria. People do what works for them at the time. But if you’re cooking for a vegetarian/vegan, it’s best to use veggie broth. > [@lazybratsche](#): > > Off the top of my head I don’t know precisely what makes up a vegetable stock, but plants certainly don’t have any collagen. I don’t know what makes the stock/broth, but I used to cook up a really good one using water that potatoes had been boiled in, off-cuts of veggies (tops and tails of carrots), onion, garlic, salt, pepper. Maybe some herbs. Even my dad liked it, and he’s mister EAT MEAT. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/43 "2015-01-21T17:41:40Z")
“What do you mean he don’t eat no meat!? Oh, that’s okay, that’s okay, I make lamb.” - [My Big Fat Greek Wedding](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFemw_6a-Tg) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/44 "2015-01-21T21:44:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If they get sufficient business between sundown on Friday and sundown on Saturday it may not be fiscally a good choice. I don’t know that a kosher restaurant is required to be closed on the sabbath. I can think of quite a few that are closed on the sabbath. But, they’re owned and operated by observant Jewish families. Manufactured foods that are certified kosher can be made during the sabbath. I need the opinion of an Industrial Strength Jew on this. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/45 "2015-01-21T23:01:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I need the opinion of an Industrial Strength Jew on this. Yeah, an actual Jew, not just Jew-ish. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/46 "2015-01-21T23:57:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t know that a kosher restaurant is required to be closed on the sabbath. I can think of quite a few that are closed on the sabbath. But, they’re owned and operated by observant Jewish families. Manufactured foods that are certified kosher can be made during the sabbath. I need the opinion of an Industrial Strength Jew on this. I am a somewhat observant Jew. I do not keep kosher, but I avoid the consumption of non-kosher animal species. I’m kinda loosey-goosey on the milk/meat thing–I don’t eat cheeseburgers or cook meat and dairy together at home, but I’ll eat meat dishes at restaurants that I know have dairy in them. My _bona fides_ established, my understanding is that a kosher establishment may be open on Shabbat if any Jewish owners derive no profit from it. I argue this by example: I lived in Berkeley when Noah’s Bagels first opened there. It was certified kosher, but was open 7 days/week. This feat was achieved by at least one owner being non-Jewish, and all profit from Saturday sales went _only_ to that person or persons. I think Berkeley also had a certified-kosher vegetarian Chinese place that was open every day. There are some restrictions on observant Jews eating food cooked entirely by non-Jews (or non-observant Jews). I think these are usually gotten around by having a strictly observant Jew do at least one task necessary for the cooking–something like turning on the oven first thing in the morning (which could not happen on Saturday, but strictly observant Jews wouldn’t be eating that food anyway). On an earlier point: while foods marked as kosher and pareve (neither meat nor milk) are often vegan, they aren’t always. Fish is considered pareve, which is why most Jews will eat lox and cream cheese (but not all–don’t ask). Also, there are technical rules (about which I don’t know details) that allow for certain things which eventually become food ingredients to be kosher and pareve, even though they are derived from non-kosher animals. I am fairly certain, however, that plastic bags marked with a kosher certification do not use animal fats as lubrication agents–the fats would need to be from kosher-slaughtered animals to qualify, and then the bags could not be used for storing dairy, which would be impractical. I think pretty much all beer and hard liquor is considered kosher without certification if it meets certain basic ingredient restrictions (no grapes–again, don’t ask), whether or not a fish-derived fining agent is used. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/47 "2015-01-22T01:43:53Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > I’ve never been particularly ideological or evangelical about vegetarianism in any case. But I do try to avoid things made with products that require killing. Your posts indicate that I may need to try harder, or at least not assume that something like beer (I mean, really, _beer_!) hasn’t been passed through fish guts on the way to my glass. If it helps, nobody is killing fish just for the guts. The guts are a byproduct from the regular fishing industry and the amount of guts thrown away far exceeds the amount used for isinglass. Also, Wikipedia says isinglass is mainly used for cask beers and that [Non-cask beers that are destined for kegs, cans or bottles are often pasteurized and filtered.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass#Foods_and_drinks). ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/48 "2015-01-22T02:21:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How vegan are you? Do you eat white sugar, processed with animal bones? Do you use plastic bags made with animal fats? Do you listen to musical instruments glued together with animal glues? Or do you compromise somewhere along the way, deciding that the convenience of not living a monastic existence outweighs the harm you’re doing to animals? > > Vegetarians: same thing, different point along the continuum. And boom goes the dynamite. ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/49 "2015-01-22T15:03:47Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > La la la la! I can’t hear you! > > Seriously, beer? Fucking _beer_?! And… fish?! Really? No matter how you cut it, food processing of almost any kind is kind of gross when you boil it down. Manure makes great fertilizer for your vegetables, too. There’s no getting away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/50 "2015-01-23T15:17:23Z")
> [@Stormcrow](#): > > No matter how you cut it, food processing of almost any kind is kind of gross when you boil it down. Manure makes great fertilizer for your vegetables, too. There’s no getting away from it. Do you know what happens to food AFTER you swallow it? GUH-ROSS! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/51 "2015-01-24T06:17:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > It’s interesting that the Catholic church turns a blind eye or gives a wink and a nod to dietary restrictions, while I’ve heard the Jewish… erm, ‘church’? … is more strict than the laws say. Catholic here, and I wouldn’t eat beef broth on a Friday in Lent. Meat flavor derived from meat = meat. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/52 "2015-01-24T18:10:01Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Catholic here, and I wouldn’t eat beef broth on a Friday in Lent. Meat flavor derived from meat = meat. Out of curiosity, are McDonalds French fries, whose tasty savory flavor is derived in part from beef tallow, verboten as well? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/53 "2015-01-24T18:29:42Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Catholic here, and I wouldn’t eat beef broth on a Friday in Lent. Meat flavor derived from meat = meat. Same here. Even our meat-loving Polish family would make a vegetarian borscht (rather than on the usual beef stock) when there were pescatarian restrictions, as on Lenten Fridays and Christmas Eve, ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/54 "2015-01-24T18:37:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well… I’m no vegetarian, but I _do_ throw my fruit and vegetable peelings on my compost heap, so why not? Compost is OK, but a true vegan would never eat anything fertilized with manure or other animal products. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/55 "2015-01-24T20:42:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Out of curiosity, are McDonalds French fries, whose tasty savory flavor is derived in part from beef tallow, verboten as well? I didn’t think they used beef anymore, but yes. Thanks for the heads up! I will have my Filet O’Fish sans fries. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/56 "2015-01-24T23:58:50Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I didn’t think they used beef anymore, but yes. Thanks for the heads up! I will have my Filet O’Fish sans fries. 🙂 They don’t use tallow anymore, but they do use beef-derived flavorings, as far as I know. [Their own website](http://www.mcdonalds.com/content/us/en/your_questions/our_food/are-your-fries-vegetarian-friendly.html) says they fry the fries in oil containing “natural beef flavoring,” so I’d avoid it if I were to keep vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/57 "2015-01-25T00:38:06Z")
And here I thought that cats licking plastic bags could be explained by the known fact that cats are crazy. It is the simpler explanation, after all. Speaking of such things, I understand that the criterion for an animal-derived product from an unclean animal to become kosher is that it must become non-food at some point during processing, with “non-food” being defined as “a dog won’t eat it”. Thus, for instance, gelatin can be kosher even if it was ultimately derived from pigs, because even though a dog will eat pigs, and a dog will eat gelatin, a dog won’t eat some of the intermediate steps. But I am not a Talmud scholar, so I might be mistaken on that. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/58 "2015-01-25T03:55:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Same here. Even our meat-loving Polish family would make a vegetarian borscht (rather than on the usual beef stock) when there were pescatarian restrictions, as on Lenten Fridays and Christmas Eve, Me too. And I can’t imagine a priest saying it was OK to knowingly eat soup made with beef broth on a Friday during Lent “because you’re making an effort to be meatless”\*. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but it’s certainly not the standard interpretation. I can however, see a priest saying there’s nothing wrong with having eaten a vegetable soup that you thought was vegetarian when you were eating it and only later found out it was made with beef broth- but that’s something different. \*Especially since there doesn’t seem to be any effort in the example _if the person knows it was made with beef broth_- there’s vegan vegetarian soup/ lobster bisque and/or clam chowder most Fridays and if they serve sandwiches as well as soup my guess is they have grilled cheese or tuna salad. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/59 "2015-01-25T05:54:53Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It may be, but unless the brewer assures you of this, you usually can’t know. > > Most beers are filtered to remove yeast. If this isn’t done, the beer may be cloudy and/or taste yeasty. A number of different filtering agents can be used, one of which is isinglass, which is made from fish. A vegetarian beer will be made with a vegetarian filtering agent. > > A second problem arises in some of the cheap and nasty lager beers, where starch products are added to create a bigger or more long-lasting head. Some of these starches are animal-derived. > > And a third problem can arise in a few specialty beers which contain either honey or lactose. Fine for vegetarians, but not for vegans. There is a website where you can check if the beer you drink is vegan or not. It’s called [Barnivore](http://www.barnivore.com/). ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001/60 "2015-01-26T17:36:10Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > There is a website where you can check if the beer you drink is vegan or not. It’s called [Barnivore](http://www.barnivore.com/). This is a really great site, thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-vegetarians-eat-beef-broth/710001.md?page=4)