# Can we all agree that this is reason enough to have the border locked down and secure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466 "2014-06-23T17:57:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/121 "2014-06-25T22:00:58Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > So, I would tell the average Mexican what I would tell the average resident of any other country. You need to win the lottery or prove yourself exceptionally worthy such that an American employer would sponsor you. Being “exceptionally worthy such that an American employer would sponsor you” is worth nothing. You can be the greatest welder in the history of welding, and you’re still ineligible for the employment-based preferences, because welding doesn’t qualify. Only certain specific occupations are eligible, mostly in the sciences and professions; an employer wishing to sponsor somebody in a different field is SOL. You are the one who argued earlier that Mexicans had options and needed to wait their turn; now you are reduced to arguing that Mexicans who want to immigrate legally ought to play the lottery?!? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/122 "2014-06-25T22:07:57Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > You are the one who argued earlier that Mexicans had options and needed to wait their turn; now you are reduced to arguing that Mexicans who want to immigrate legally ought to play the lottery?!? Mexicans do have options. If they are exceptionally qualified someone will sponsor them. What else do you want me to say, that everybody should be allowed to come here just because they want to? I’ve already made it abundantly clear that is an irrational and potentially hazardous policy. You may well find it suitable, but I don’t. I’m sorry that the world can’t fit in one country. My heart bleeds for those who live in shit-holes, but the impetus is on their country to fix itself, not mine to open the floodgates. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/123 "2014-06-25T22:14:45Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > What else do you want me to say, that everybody should be allowed to come here just because they want to? They want you to stay on topic and post some facts that support your opinion. You disagreed with **Really Not All That Bright** when he said it’s very difficult for Mexican citizens to immigrate to the U.S. legally, but you haven’t substantiated that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/124 "2014-06-25T23:07:44Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > In my own words, his argument is that it is virtually impossible to immigrate to the United States outside of the family-based immigration system, and thus illegal aliens are morally justified in coming here illegally. I’m glad you made it clear that these are your words, since that is not my argument. I am not making a value judgment; as I said, I am largely okay with the system as it exists today (though I certainly don’t blame anyone for coming here illegally to provide for their families). I was merely refuting your suggestion that immigrants “wait their turn” - because there is no turn for them to wait for. You can’t tell someone to pull themselves up by the bootstraps if they can’t afford shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/125 "2014-06-25T23:15:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > “Hey, if we all can’t agree that illegals are undeserving criminals, can we at least agree that they’re diseased impure vermin?” “And can we agree [this cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_elders_of_zion) presents the issues at stake in a fair and factual manner ?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/126 "2014-06-25T23:55:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I would give any credence to an AAPS assessment of health risks. Politics come before science for them. From wikipedia: Insert “not” after “I”. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > The first line on it’s Wiki page says . I didn’t read much more than the first 30 or so posts, but did anyone notice that this is being reported by [Breitbart news](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart.com)? Forget AAPS, this is worse than Drudge. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/127 "2014-06-26T00:22:10Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > So I went to look. And, lo and behold, I found [this](http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/9/1250.full). > > That article is about the ethical considerations of reporting research results regarding undocumented immigrants. That article has lots of footnotes. > > So, the rate in undocumented workers is higher and the duration of symptoms is longer. Additionally, documented workers results matched those of born citizens. > > Now, of course, I fully expect czarcasm et al. to claim that the CDC, the American Thoracic Society, the Journal of the American Medical Association and the Infectious Diseases Society of America are biased, unreliable sources. I won’t claim they are, but I will claim you are. For example, you left out this quote from the article you linked to: > [@your own cite](#): > > most molecular epidemiology studies do not indicate that TB in immigrants is associated with increased transmission to native-born persons (it mentions that there’s been transmission between immigrants and native populations **in Spain** , which I think we can agree isn’t what we’re discussing here) You also don’t mention the article’s actual recommendation for how to improve control of TB in the US: > [@](#): > > We remain concerned that publication of the research results by Achkar et al. could lead to further stigmatization of undocumented immigrants. However, the importance of the knowledge obtained for public health, including the health of undocumented immigrants, warrants wide dissemination of the results. It is obvious that the findings need to be confirmed by larger, population-based studies. However, publication of even these limited findings should lead to an awareness that the reduction of barriers to health care services for undocumented immigrants could help improve TB control in the community. I can only imagine why you’d leave out both the key finding that TB doesn’t commonly spread from immigrant populations to native populations, in blatant contradiction of the OP’s paranoia, and the conclusion that the best approach to solving any disease issue among undocumented immigrants is to reduce barriers to health care services–again, exactly the opposite of what the OP’s ideas would lead to. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/128 "2014-06-26T00:40:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Mexicans do have options. If they are exceptionally qualified someone will sponsor them. What else do you want me to say, that everybody should be allowed to come here just because they want to? I’ve already made it abundantly clear that is an irrational and potentially hazardous policy. You may well find it suitable, but I don’t. > > I’m sorry that the world can’t fit in one country. My heart bleeds for those who live in shit-holes, but the impetus is on their country to fix itself, not mine to open the floodgates. This has nothing to do with “the entire world”; this has to do with Mexico, almost exclusively. No one cares if white Europeans immigrate illegally. This is about America’s hatred of brown people\*, and its desire to have millions of cheap Mexican laborers here illegally - and only illegally. And no, they don’t have “options”; we very specifically don’t want Mexicans to have options. We want them here illegally only. \*And these so-called anti-illegal-immigrant crusades always end up with a lot of persecution aimed at American citizens who “look Mexican”, because racism is one of main driving forces involved however much people want to pretend otherwise ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/129 "2014-06-26T02:32:22Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > And of the 11.4 million whose turn has already come? That 11.4 million which represents 30.1% of all immigrants in this country? > \* > Mexican immigrants with no immediate family ties to US citizens have no chance of being allowed to immigrate legally.\* > > This is odd. These immigrants-in-waiting have family ties to US citizens. So, as a foundational premise, these US citizens once lived in Mexico and somehow magically are now US citizens. But they of course had “zero chance” to immigrate legally. > > Something does not add up to your assertion that the group which represents 30.1% of all immigrants in this country have zero chance of immigrating legally. If family ties are required for legal immigration, which I am fairly certain is not true (doesn’t Mexico have geniuses like everyone else?), how did the family tied to them get legal immigrant status? Some Mexicans marry people who are native-born U.S. citizens, who then sponsor them to immigrate to the U.S. (and there is no annual quota for spouses of U.S. citizens). Believe it or not, sometimes they marry U.S. citizens who are not even of Mexican descent! Some Mexican citizens are sponsored by their adult children who are native-born U.S. citizens (though often there are barriers to getting a green card via that route if you have periods of unlawful presence in the U.S. or entered the U.S. without permission, which is another story). Some people are sponsored by siblings or parents who immigrated via one of those routes. Some people are granted asylum (a category which would have been laughable for a Mexican to apply for 20 years ago, but unfortunately not so much anymore). Some people are indeed sponsored by employers (and it’s not accurate that there is a set list of professions that qualify a person for employer sponsorship - in theory anyone can be sponsored by an employer, but in practice employers aren’t going to go through the [PITA process](http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/perm.cfm)of documenting that there are no available, qualified U.S. workers for a position, which is generally the prerequisite for Step 1 of the [employment-based permanent residence process](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/types/employment.html), unless it’s for someone who has skills not easily found in the U.S. labor market, because the process takes years and costs thousands of dollars for the required recruitment alone). I’ve even known of commercial laundry workers who got green cards that way, but it took 10+ years. However, only 7% of the total annual quota of green cards is available to citizens of any single country. Which means that of 140,000 annual available employment-based green cards, 9800 are available to Mexicans (including dependents, meaning spouses and unmarried children under 21). And of those 9800, 28.6% go to the third preference category, meaning anyone who has less than a graduate degree. 10,000 total employment-based green cards annually can go to “other workers,” meaning people with less education with a bachelor’s degree - so of those, 700 green cards can go to Mexican workers who have less than the equivalent of a bachelor’s degree. So unless you are a minister, or meet one of the “genius” criteria, and you are Mexican, those are your chances at getting an employment-based green card. Let’s get real, folks - unless you have a spouse or adult child who is a U.S. citizen, you are going to be waiting years to immigrate. In July 2014, Mexicans who were sponsored by U.S. citizen siblings on [Dec. 15, 1996 or earlier](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/bulletin/2014/visa-bulletin-for-july-2014.html) will finally reach the front of the line and be allowed to immigrate. IF the line doesn’t move backward by the time they complete the process, which it frequently does because of the demand. Even if you’re married to (or the minor unmarried child of) a permanent resident, if you’re Mexican, if your U.S. citizen relative filed for you on March 14, 2011 or earlier, you’re still waiting. For the vast majority of Mexicans,\*\* there is no line. \*\* Eva Luna, U.S. immigration paralegal ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466/130 "2014-06-29T21:09:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I won’t claim they are, but I will claim you are. For example, you left out this quote from the article you linked to: > > (it mentions that there’s been transmission between immigrants and native populations **in Spain** , which I think we can agree isn’t what we’re discussing here) > > You also don’t mention the article’s actual recommendation for how to improve control of TB in the US: > I can only imagine why you’d leave out both the key finding that TB doesn’t commonly spread from immigrant populations to native populations, in blatant contradiction of the OP’s paranoia, and the conclusion that the best approach to solving any disease issue among undocumented immigrants is to reduce barriers to health care services–again, exactly the opposite of what the OP’s ideas would lead to. Do you ever read for comprehension? I never made a claim about transmission rate, other than to say that it would be interesting to find out the transmission rates for TB and other diseases… So your silly little knee jerk reaction is way off base, especially concidering that I am FOR immigration. Second , the articles recommendations are trivial in that I wasn’t discussing what happens after undocumented workers arrive. The question is if undocumented workers bring in diseases. They do. Whether it is Spain or the U.S. is trivial. It’s not.like diseases respect borders. Last, the study is very clear that documented immigrants, as a matter of health, are no different than citizens while undocumented workers have very different numbers. The study I linked to was for TB. I am willing to bet the findings for other diseases is the same in that undocumented workers have higher rates. A sane immigration policy has to look at the disease issue as well as a bunch of otherr things. Ignoring it, or offering free medical care to undocumented workers (which would be a giant gift to the anti-immigration folks on the political side) is not a sane immigration policy. Slee [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-all-agree-that-this-is-reason-enough-to-have-the-border-locked-down-and-secure/691466.md?page=6)