# Can we build better forum software? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [March 14, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723 "2012-03-14T06:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/21 "2012-03-15T04:16:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I find this idea fascinating. I wonder if we can reverse engineer the Tapatalk protocol and adapt it for a desktop app… ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/22 "2012-03-15T04:46:59Z")
I think the SDMB is an anomaly when it comes to usage of forum software. We are still on vBulletin v3.7.3, even though vBulletin has had many updates since. This is by choice, as the benfits vs. costs for the SDMB don’t seem compelling enough to upgrade. Many features that are important to other boards are not important to the SDMB, e.g. tags, user rankings, votes, avatars, etc., because the SDMB has a very different engagement model from most other boards. The needs of, say, Stack Overflow, Reddit, Hacker News, and the SDMB, are very different. And each system works well enough for each of those, although I’m sure they could be made better in ways we haven’t even though of yet. The question for **codinghorror** is: do you believe the same system can serve the needs of each of these diverse communities? For **codinghorror** ’s purposes, this might not even be the right target market for any new forum software that he envisions. But I’m glad he chose to engage with us, and I hope he sticks around to engage beyond this thread. Personally, I think comment engines are a lot more ripe for disruption than forum software. Look at the average comment on YouTube, CNN, TechCrunch, etc. Google Wave, Disqus, and Facebook (among others) have all tried addressing this problem, but in my opinion, have failed miserably. > [@jacobsta811](#): > > As the forum grows, moderation becomes more important, and as the forum gets supersized dealing with spam, and completely off topic issues that might derail the board entirely. > > … > > Could spam and even bad posters be dealt with more like email spam is ? That is, could all the “CodingHorrorForum” forum installations share data and create blackhole style lists by using the data from all sites put together. Including moderation decisions - on any active sites you have human curated, high quality data about posters by way of moderation decisions, could that apply to all sites ? There are anti-spam filters available for existing forum software that work similar to what you describe. The SDMB handles spam exceptionally well. Moderation on the SDMB is also much heavier than most other forums, and members rarely see spam. In fact, **codinghorror** ’s original post was flagged as spam. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/23 "2012-03-15T05:24:00Z")
> [@codinghorror](#): > > Your community has grown up, but the software hasn’t. > > So … what if we built a better forum mousetrap? You clearly haven’t researched this board carefully enough. Your proposal is like pitching a next generation electric car to the Amish. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/24 "2012-03-15T05:35:25Z")
The SDMB is unlikely to improve due to its management style, but in general as a heavy SDMB user, but also a user of other forums on occasion, my preferences would be basically for what vBulletin provides, but with improvements: Not so much vertical space taken up per post - or maybe the option to have two- or three-column display of a thread Better search options (e.g. show me only all threads that I have posted in which have been updated since my last visit) Voting buttons for posts Ajax-style live updating Tapatalk-style mobile app (I think Tapatalk sucks but there’s no viable alternative) Fewer single-issue lunatics (the software would project a hand from the screen and bitch-slap them every time they tried to post) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/26 "2012-03-15T07:50:22Z")
We can rebuild the boards. We have the technology. We can make them better than they were. Better…stronger…faster. Er…does anyone have six million dollars they can spare? ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/27 "2012-03-15T12:32:09Z")
> [@xash](#): > > In fact, **codinghorror** ’s original post was flagged as spam. It sure read that way at first (and second) glance. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/28 "2012-03-15T15:17:08Z")
> [@codinghorror](#): > > **I think most forum software (read: phpBB and vBulletin) sucks, and is stuck in a late-90s design rut.** To the extent that we have amazing ten (!) year old forum communities like the one at Straight Dope it is _in spite of_ the forum software, which is uniformly terrible and has evolved hardly at all in the last decade. Just because web forum software has solidified/not changed much is not in itself a bad thing. It means that it is largely accomplishing the task, and the big problems have been addressed. What you have is a level of functionality that accomplishes the goal of providing for structured conversations over the web. There are lots of features available in web forum software that this particular board does not implement, primarily due to “community standards” and historical legacy. You would do better off illustrating the ways that current forum software is uniformly terrible. What makes what we have _need_ to change? > [@](#): > > Almost all the social forum problems I see are _software_ problems. By that I mean the software is doing almost nothing to encourage users to follow the social norms in [outlined in the faq](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq). Your community has grown up, but the software hasn’t. Some of us would be helped by concrete examples of how the software is not encouraging the social norms in the faq, or things software could do that would improve users following the social norms. Telling me “gamification” doesn’t really help me understand. Get more concrete with it. I did read your linked articles, and they were insightful, but not yet convincing how those features would improve conversations. Because what we are holding are conversations, not just trying to give the best answer to a static question. > [@LionelHutz405](#): > > I’d like to see a forum that isn’t browser-based at all. > Make the data available via the Internet, but the front end is a program that is installed on the user’s machine. Then you would have all the power and usability of a desktop program. Given the number of people that post from work, this is not the best idea. I know my work will not allow me to install software. Also, I do not just post from one computer. I use my laptop at home, my desktop at work, two or three different lab computers depending on where I am and when I have downtime, my parents’ computer when I am visiting them. Plus I have logged in from library computers, computers at places where I’m waiting for service like car repairs, etc. Having to download an app in order to access the site greatly reduces access. The point of a web-based interface is that anyone can get to it from any computer. Having a dual interface - a downloadable app and a web-interface option - might be doable, but I’m afraid you’d run into a system that optimized for one at the expense of the other. For instance, my work email system loads to Outlook on my desktop computer, and that is my primariy email access. However, there is a web-based email interface that I can use if I am not at my own machine. The advantage is that I have access from a lot of places, not just one computer. The disadvantage is that the functionality on the web interface is not as good. Now is that because the web interface inherently limits access, or is it because the system is optimized for a desktop system and the web interface is a work around? > [@rachelellogram](#): > > The thing that annoys me the most on this forum is when entire subforums (and the topics therein) get marked as “read” without me having read them. … I’ll click any given thread, read it, **then go back to the subforum** … where all the topics (whether I’ve read them or not) have suddenly been marked as “read.” It happens randomly and often, and I have no idea what triggers it. One way to reduce this headache - I open the forum list, then I open the threads from that forum in a separate tab/page. I keep that forum list up in its own tab rather than navigate away and back. Ergo, all the “unread” status on that list does not update/change. Then I just work down the forum list. After getting through all the unread’s, I might refresh and see if there’s anything new, or go to the next forum. (I, personally, copy the next thread link and paste into the open thread tab instead of closing the tab at the end of a thread and then opening the next thread in a new tab, but that’s me. I also tend to open each page of the thread separately so I can cross-reference when I’m responding. YMMV.) > [@jjimm](#): > > …my preferences would be basically for what vBulletin provides, but with improvements: > > [snip] > Tapatalk-style mobile app (I think Tapatalk sucks but there’s no viable alternative) SDMB already works with Tapatalk. Unless you’re suggesting a new mobile app that works better? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/29 "2012-03-15T15:21:02Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > SDMB already works with Tapatalk. Unless you’re suggesting a new mobile app that works better? Perhaps I shouldn’t have put my comment “Tapatalk sucks but there’s no viable alternative” in parentheses. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/30 "2012-03-15T15:32:20Z")
I’ll give an example. One of your articles talks about page layout of the typical forum (which example was not SDMB). It talks about the content of the displayed page being 18% of the display space, the rest taken up by avatars, signatures, and doohickeys. Well, I tend to agree that much of that is distracting fluff, and am happy that SD does not have some of those features on. For instance, I have sig files off. They are usually pointless to me, and typically annoying reading the same thing repeatedly. Especially when they have huge animated gifs, but even quotes get annoying after a while. But apparently a lot of people like them, judging by how common they are outside the SDMB. Or avatars. Some people make a reasonable case that avatars serve a viable function of providing a visual label to help keep identities of posters separate in a way that a text moniker just does not do. Doesn’t mean I want them here, but I understand their point. So some of that “non-content” is still useful for the purposes of the board. Now look what you want to do - install “badges, reputation system, voting”, etc. To me, those seem like more thread clutter that intrude on the content. I don’t need thumbs up icons to vote each comment, or arrows, or a list of “likes”. Those are all crap when slapped on every post in the thread. They’re superfluous clutter for me reading through the thread. So even though you identify a problem with current functionality, you yourself contribute to that very problem with some of the suggestions you provide. Every “doohickey” out there serves a purpose someone thinks is important, or they would turn them off. All you seem to be suggesting is shuffling doohickeys. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/31 "2012-03-15T15:33:32Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Perhaps I shouldn’t have put my comment “Tapatalk sucks but there’s no viable alternative” in parentheses. 😉 Oh, I thought you were saying “I wish we could use a mobile app like Tapatalk”, not “I wish someone would make a better mobile app”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/32 "2012-03-15T15:39:40Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Oh, I thought you were saying “I wish we could use a mobile app like Tapatalk”, not “I wish someone would make a better mobile app”. Yeah, the latter. I’m disappointed you’re not treating my bitch-slapping-hand suggestion with similar seriousness. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/33 "2012-03-15T15:49:53Z")
Actually, I’d like to take this as an opportunity to request a feature for the board. Please add a personal notepad to the software. One where I can jot down notes, thoughts, links to important threads, etc. Would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![LionelHutz405](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lionelhutz405/32/536_2.png) [@LionelHutz405](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LionelHutz405)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/34 "2012-03-15T16:51:59Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Also, I do not just post from one computer. I use my laptop at home, my desktop at work, two or three different lab computers depending on where I am and when I have downtime, my parents’ computer when I am visiting them. All data would be stored in the database, not locally. So you could access from any computer and it would work the same. You would only need permission to run the program, nothing needs to be installed. True, this would not suit everyone as some people are in locked down environments where they can’t even do that. Those people are likely to be in an environment where browsing a message board isn’t permitted anyway. By trying to accommodate absolutely everyone, regardless of how restricted their environment is, you give up a lot. I’m saying those of use who aren’t so restricted might like to have the power and usability of a desktop program back. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/35 "2012-03-15T17:01:57Z")
The thing about phpbb and vBulletin is that they have thriving development communities. **codinghorror** may have the influence to create such a community, but for the most part, software with only a couple of maintainers inevitably dies out. What I think would need to be in next gen forum software is easy backend updates. It needs to be as foolproof as updating an iPhone. The SDMB doesn’t update its forum software because if they do, shit might break and they don’t have enough IT resources on staff to deal with that. As a web dev, I’ve found reluctance to update CMS software because it could layouts or addons. It needs to be idiotproof on the backend, including addons. Take a look at the app structure for iOS and Android. iOS has a much more rigorous process to get an app up in the store, but I’ve never ever had one break after an iOS update, and because of the screening process, apps are genuine and virus-free. But with the Android marketplace, it’s much easier to submit an app ripping off Angry Birds and no one is the wiser, and because there isn’t really a review process there’s been phishing apps and other nasties. We need plugins to work like iOS apps, not Android ones. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/36 "2012-03-17T05:23:32Z")
Hi codinghorror: welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board! I agree that a ratings system wouldn’t be helpful, for reasons stated. But the OP is correct that we’re operating with 1990s technology and could usefully think of ways of moving things forward. Personally I’d like to see the board scale up to 10x the number of bright members, as well as make money hand over fist. Commercially, there should be an automated method of purchasing ads, both for big buyers and users who want to give the board a mild boost. For the latter, 3rd party purchases might be nice: users could pay for a link to an Amnesty International report for example. Or maybe the rights to sponsor various threads could be bid at via auction – such a message would be permanent. I could imagine fleshing out the ignore feature. “Ignore this poster unless his post is modded up by a trusted poster… or unless user is quoted by poster, etc.” Though frankly, some of the problems on this board stem from a lack of consensus on what constitutes good and bad argumentation. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Please add a personal notepad to the software. One where I can jot down notes, thoughts, links to important threads, etc. Would be nice. Consider [diigo](http://www.diigo.com/index) or [a firefox plugin](http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/internet/firefox/add-sticky-notes-to-any-page-with-internote-for-firefox/). ---
**Author:** ![codinghorror](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/codinghorror/32/4242_2.png) [@codinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/codinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/37 "2012-03-17T07:27:50Z")
> [@](#): > > You clearly haven’t researched this board carefully enough. Your proposal is like pitching a next generation electric car to the Amish. Someone’s always on [rumspringa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa), though. Those are the ones I am trying to reach. > [@](#): > > What I think would need to be in next gen forum software is easy backend updates. It needs to be as foolproof as updating an iPhone. Absolutely, super-easy updates and awesome defaults (a great OOB experience without plugin-mania) are the goal from day one. > [@](#): > > Having a dual interface - a downloadable app and a web-interface option - might be doable, but I’m afraid you’d run into a system that optimized for one at the expense of the other One of the many, many crazy things about the status quo is that no forum software has a sane mobile web interface out of the box. Of course we aim to fix that in a free and open source way, among many other things… > [@](#): > > Some of us would be helped by concrete examples of how the software is not encouraging the social norms in the faq, or things software could do that would improve users following the social norms Consider basic mechanics like quote replying. How does this forum make it easy for me to quote reply in the editor. Are replies linked to the original posts? Are original posts linked to the replies? Would you _even be notified at all_ if I quoted you? Or mentioned your forum username in passing? How do I tell the background of the person who typed the message, in the global sense and in the “gee, is this thread 5 people talking to 1 guy, or 20 people talking to each other?” And then there’s the pagination disaster, because nobody reads pages 1-5 (or even two pages) before replying. Perhaps if pagination was a bit more automatic and less “click this incredibly tiny next page icon”? I can go on… ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/38 "2012-03-17T10:23:45Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > but in general as a heavy SDMB user, but also a user of other forums on occasion, my preferences would be basically for what vBulletin provides, but with improvements… Apart from the last two, you want Xenforo. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/39 "2012-03-17T16:23:57Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Or avatars. Some people make a reasonable case that avatars serve a viable function of providing a visual label to help keep identities of posters separate in a way that a text moniker just does not do. Doesn’t mean I want them here, but I understand their point. It was pointed out that avatars would be able to be turned off, just like sigs. You wouldn’t have to see them if you didn’t want to. Also, they didn’t have to allow animated ones – many boards don’t. **codinghorror** , we’ve had these discussions many times. You’re probably not going to convince many. (You should have seen the outcry over the “share with Facebook” button) Which is a shame, because considering that the Reader is currently up for sale, this board being so antiquated isn’t going to pull in many new users, and if that’s the case…well, you can probably figure that out for yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/40 "2012-03-17T17:25:21Z")
IMO excessive ease of use, niffty features, or rampant popularity could easily kill this board. Like most good things you need to do just enough to keep it alive, not more so that it gets bigger or better. I don’t think 20 million texting tweens coming here would be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723/41 "2012-03-17T20:13:08Z")
There are a lot of good ideas here. What I’m surprised and a little terrified that it’s been suggested though, is comment software. Comment style discussion is a very different beast from forum style discussion and serves very different purposes. I wouldn’t want to go anywhere in that direction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-build-better-forum-software/615723.md?page=3)