# Can we come to a consensus what racism is, and what a racist believes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616 "2006-02-02T02:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/1 "2006-02-02T02:12:52Z")
There have been a couple of recent threads in which I’ve happily helped derail by nitpicking whether racism was accurately described, or whether the behavior was simply racial bias, bigotry or discrimination – which are terms I believe are often incorrectly conflated with racism but are usually only indicators of racism and should never be synonymous with racism, common usage be damned. This thread hopes to tackle this issue ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! (Yeah, right.) Now… I believe that racism is an ideology that purports the belief that there exists a pedigree of races and a hierarchy of races; that these races very generally include white, Asian, Native American and black peoples in a wide cast worldwide diaspora with some degree of intermixing and some isolated instances of so-called racial purity. Racist thought generally flows from white to black, or Asian to black, or black to white; whichever comes first was the highest. Racist thought generally holds that there exists quantifiable biological evidence of differences in these races to support their beliefs that cannot be explained by socioeconomic resources or cultural conditioning or diet or geographical adaptations. Everybody with me so far? Typically white supremacists believe in such as things as the “bell curve” are indications of some innate biological deficiencies common to darker races; that white races are more intellectually and cognitively evolved and morally superior to darker races. Conversely, black racists believe in such theories as the “ice man inheritance”; that there is a genetic disposition towards more innate aggressive behavior among whites; that melanin imparts special properties beyond sun-protection, including more spirituality and harmony with nature. Asian racism seems to follow a general cultural xenophobia and exaggerated, extreme ethnocentrism common in Oriental culture: again, very generally speaking, among Asian racists – whatever Asian culture you grow up with is best, then (some) neighboring cultures are okay, then white folks, then maybe Native Americans and black people. Racists of whatever creed frequently share various degrees of distaste with racial intermarriage and what was once called miscegenation. Men being perpetually horny, however, there is always a convenient willingness to overlook this fact when there’s an attractive oppressed race female nearby to have sex with, and mixed race children of racists are, to me, one of the most puzzling of all human hypocrisies. Miscegenation interferes with racist notions of blood purity, by at least half. IF you wholeheartedly subscribe to one of the above racist philosophies, you are most likely racist. Congratulation: your parents must be proud. Then again, they probably passed such beliefs to you. Historically, racist doctrine is accompanied by a willingness to oppress, dehumanize, socioeconomically marginalize, segregate from (by force of law) and violently suppress the rights of so-called lesser races. This is done with what I’ve decided to call a number of racist indicators: racial bigotry, racial discrimination, racial prejudice, racial bias, racial xenophobia and racial ethnocentrism. Of course, you can easily be a religious bigot, or a discriminator of gender, or have an age prejudice, or a socioeconomic bias, or cultural xenophobia or a regional ethnocentrism. As I said, bigotry, discrimination, prejudice, bias, xenophobia and ethnocentrism can be applied to a lot of things, because they are simply indicators of a possible intolerance, be it sexual orientation, genealogy or intelligence. Some things we mock and discriminate against are protected. Many are not. Anyway – the more you align these indicators to another person’s skin color – the more racist you likely are to be. Again (I’m going to type this in caps. I feel like shouting.) YOU CAN HAVE CERTAIN INDICATORS AND NOT NECESSARILY BE AN OUT-AND-OUT RACIST. Your kindly old grandmother who teaches your kids to say “Eeny meeny miney moe, catch a nigger by his toe…” may not be racist. At very worst this would indicate intracted bigoted behavior. A black dude who says stuff like, “The Jews own all of Hollywood and control all the media!” is equally bigoted – but may not feel especially superior, so isn’t racist (or particularly Anti-Semitic.) Bigotry more accurately explains a lot of what is commonly and mistakenly so- called “racist” behavior. Bigotry is a perfectly good word that gets overlooked for the overused term racism. Bigotry is better applied than racism in MOST cases. Dopers should be a HELL of a lot more discrimi-- I mean, discerning than to just use “racism” indiscriminately. Nuance is everything. A bigot is much a different creature than a racist. For one thing… no mater that crap that flies out their mouths, most bigots won’t violently oppress people to assure their own supremacy. A racist will in a heartbeat. A racist’s entire belief system is dependant on oppressing someone else. Not so with someone who’s a bigot, who’s discriminates, who’s xenophobic, who has racial bias, etc. If you have – occasionally – some of the indicators of racist thought, you well may not BE wholly a racist. Sometimes an indicator is problematic just by itself. But make no mistake – I believe contemporary America is still very much in the grips and death thrones of a lot of paralyzing, debilitating, narrow-minded racist ideologies that have permeated public policy and private thought. The sooner we own up to THAT, the better off we’ll be freeing ourselves from seeing racism everywhere. The first step to quit seeing racism everywhere is to NARROW its scope, not increase it. So to all the critics who have said to me that I am using a narrow, unrealistic definition of racism, cool. Let’s hope it catches oh, hm? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/2 "2006-02-02T03:11:26Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > That’s my problem with your attempt to define racism so narrowly. It seems like you are trying to impart a statement of value to the term so that all someone has to do is call something racist in order to convey How Shockingly Horrorible That Is. Which is why threads like these gets derailed, because there is always someone so hellbent on calling someone a racist (classic ad hominem tactic) that the main issue gets obscured under semantic quibblings. > > I’m quite content in saying that racism encompasses a wide range of things. The white guy who thinks blacks are intellectually inferior is racist. The black lady who thinks white men are predisposed to pedophilia is racist. The idea that an all-white town is more optimal than a mixed one is a racist idea. The idea that black people are inherently more trustworthy than white people is a racist idea. There is no need to factor in the power differential when determining which point-of-views are racist. All of them are because they attribute certain things to race that are not determined by race. > > The power differential only becomes relevant when we are talking about the impact, pervasiveness, and flavor of racism in one group vs another. Historical background also figures in to that. Two ideas can be racist and rate differently in terms of their practical implications. “Blacks are better dancers than whites” is racist, but has less damaging implications than the racist statement"Whites are morally superior to blacks." This is what I’ve been trying to get **Liberal** and others to see. > > The problem with using racism as a value-loaded term is that by labeling the two statements above as racist, it’s like saying they are equal in scale. But they are not. Using my definition, I can call both statements racist, but then explain why one is more significant than the other. > > Racism, in my eyes, encompasses both _unconscious_ bias and _conscious_ bigotry. The cop who has a trigger finger when it comes to blacks because he unconsciously thinks of blacks as criminals is exhibiting racist tendencies. The cop who shoots black guys because he hates black guys is also exhibiting racism. Racist thought, IMO, encompasses a continuum of beliefs ranging from the implicit to the explicit, and its rather arbitrary to draw the line at conscious beliefs. I cut and pasted this statement from this thread, which I am desperately trying to NOT derail, because I already have stated there once that I find the OP deeply flawed, and having posted there twice, I don’t want to continue my conversation in that particular thread. **you with the face** raises some really good points I want to address – tomorrow. (Hey, it’s late…) The only thing I’ll comment on tonight is that, if anything, narrowing the scope of de-emphasizes its importance. (I certainly hope I’m not being accused of ad hominem attack – if anything I go out of my WAY to avoid calling someone a racist.) **the face** , you may well be content with saying racism encompasses a lot of things. But that’s very misleading. If anything a lot of things are very similar to racism, which is why they are easily conflated with that ideology, but they are not synonymous and it would be more productive to discredit the ideology separately. Logic is often best served via deconstruction. Instead of building up racism as this wide, huge impossible intractable thing, divide it into smaller, causal behaviors and beliefs and the examine the fallacies in each. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/3 "2006-02-02T03:13:08Z")
Whoops. I meant, " I cut and pasted this statement from [this thread…"](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356492&page=3) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/4 "2006-02-02T03:35:08Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > The only thing I’ll comment on tonight is that, if anything, narrowing the scope of de-emphasizes its importance. ( **I certainly hope I’m not being accused of ad hominem attack – if anything I go out of my WAY to avoid calling someone a racist.** ) I do, too (to the point in bold). Not because I have narrow criteria for racism, but because it is more inflammatory to call someone racist than it is to call their ideas racist. > [@](#): > > Logic is often best served via deconstruction. Instead of building up racism as this wide, huge impossible intractable thing, divide it into smaller, causal behaviors and beliefs and the examine the fallacies in each. You are assuming that just because racism is pervasive among groups (as it is under my definition), it is this “wide, huge impossible intractable thing”. Just because racism is pervasive doesn’t automatically mean it’s a problem. In my eyes, it’s only a problem if we can show that racist thoughts lead to racial discrimination. And to take it further: It’s only a _signficant_ problem if we can show that such thoughts lead to _significant_ discrimination. Thanks for starting this thread, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/5 "2006-02-02T04:29:33Z")
To me, a racist is someone who believes that they are superior to another solely on the basis of their genetic/ethnic/religious/other make-up. That is, by birth right alone they are better than others. A racists, however, is not someone who protects or otherwise defense their own genetic/ethnic/religious/other grouping in the face of adversity. For example, Jesse Jackson is not a racist per se, he’s just pushing one race’s cause over the other. I don’t believe he thinks he is superior to white/latin/asians but he just wants to push the black agendas ahead of them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/6 "2006-02-02T11:36:17Z")
An excellent thread, Askia. It’s so refreshing to see someone attempt to establish a consensus on what we mean by the terms we use in debates. Nothing is more frustrating than having to endure desperation accusations of semantic quibbling when people aren’t even defining a word the same way. This is a semantic quibble: **A whale is not big; it is huge.** This is not: **A what is not a fish; it’s a mammal.** White Supremecists have taken advantage of the intellectually lazy tendency to allow racism to mean bigotry precisely in the manner described by Lochdale. Stormfront, for example, has now forbidden the use of words like “nigger” and “kike” in an attempt to be less confrontational with the White Race Traitors whom they hope to bring into the fold. They no longer (openly) claim any superiority to other races, but merely the desire to be separate from them, even citing their admiration of analogous segregationist tendencies among blacks themselves (as in colleges, etc.). They want to appear as mere bigots, pushing the white agenda ahead of others. They have decided to go mainstream, and use the system against itself with their votes. “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” — Benjamin Franklin ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/7 "2006-02-02T12:06:25Z")
Hi - Great OP “I believe contemporary America is still very much in the grips and death thrones of a lot of paralyzing, debilitating, narrow-minded racist ideologies that have permeated public policy and private thought” Can you give us some examples of what you mean by this? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/8 "2006-02-02T14:16:54Z")
I think racism in terms of actual hatred of a particular race is on the downslide. However, “cultural racism” has taken its place. If they don’t behave exactly like white America behaves, they’re somehow less than us. I’m not talking about the criminal aspects (percentage of blacks in prison, for example). That’s another discussion. I’m referring to little things that “equal” racism, such as some people getting all bent out of shape because a black woman chooses to wear traditional tribal clothing, or black kids listening to rap music, or disliking a whole race because they prefer “black speak” when talking to their black friends but do “White Bread Speak” in other situations. “It’s not their color. I just hate how they _are!_” This is the racism I see these days. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/9 "2006-02-02T14:23:36Z")
But Kalhoun, why do you _call_ that racism? Why not just call it bigotry? If you were to perceive a decline in the murder rate, would you then start using the word “murder” to mean other types of assaults? Would you say, “People don’t murder you to death anymore, they just leave you hospitalized. That’s the murdering I see these days.”? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/10 "2006-02-02T14:58:30Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m referring to little things that “equal” racism, such as some people getting all bent out of shape because a black woman chooses to wear traditional tribal clothing… But one of the OPs points (as I understand him): those things _ **don’t** _ make that person a racist. Getting your knickers in a twist over rap music is not the same thing as lynching a man who looks at a white girl, and pretending that it is does not aid the cause of brotherhood. It may be wrongheaded or stupid – bigoted, to use the OP’s term – but it is not necessarily rooted in hatred. All that approach does is To give a concrete example: My dad cannot be plausibly said to harbor any real beliefs in white superiority, and in fact has actively engaged in racial-reconciliation activities (e.g. when he was a pastor, he engaged in pulpit swaps with black churches’ ministers). Nonetheless, he does say or do things that reveal where and when he was raised: finding it noteworthy when a black person is articulate or educated, using “colored” back in the 80s when the term was passe, using the pronoun “they” in ways that make me uncomfortable, dropping an N-bomb when he lost his temper watching football … and yes, expressing consternation over kente cloth and rap videos To call someone like that a “racist,” however, is to lump him in with his brother, my uncle, who thinks Martin Luther King was connected to the KGB and that _The Bell Curve_ was stating the obvious. That lumping is not productive for anyone. I can tell you where it leads, based on my expereince as a self-righteous teenager: it leads to making someone who is sincerely trying to be tolerant and accepting to feel like he can’t win, that his efforts have been wasted, and that he’s supposed to feel guilty for being white … and that maybe his brother has some points after all. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/11 "2006-02-02T15:03:41Z")
I guess I wasn’t clear. I see it as veiled racism. If you don’t hate the race, but just hate everything they think, do, say, wear, or sing…somehow in some people’s minds, it isn’t racism. I think it still is…just dressed up in a different suit. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/12 "2006-02-02T15:37:51Z")
> [@furt](#): > > To call someone like that a “racist,” however, is to lump him in with his brother, my uncle, who thinks Martin Luther King was connected to the KGB and that _The Bell Curve_ was stating the obvious. Racism doesn’t have to be as extreme as taking the Bell Curve as gospel or belonging to the KKK. I object to defining the term so that it precludes anything short of genocide, slavery, and mass incarceration. When you do that, you end up putting value on the term racism so that its weighted more heavily than bigotry, prejudice, etc. Why must we make racism loaded in that way? “Oooh, you are so intelligent for a black girl.” That’s a racist statement. If your dad said anything remotely like that to me, **furt** , I’d have no qualms considering that a racist statement. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t well-intentioned. It doesn’t mean my assessment makes him “lumped together” with your more overtly racist uncle. It just means that he is coming at me from a racist perspective and is not viewing me as individual. I think all too often nuance is lacking when we talk about race. People want to say “That’s racist!” and that’s all. As if “racist!” says it all. No one wants to put in the extra time to explain why they find something offensive or troubling. They just want to attach a label to something and then walk away as if the act of labeling it absolves us from further discussion. It’s the easy way out. I think we should stop fretting over what makes something racist or not, and spend more energy at looking at the implications of bigotry and bias. Because it is through bigotry and bias that discrimination occurs. Getting bogged down on definitions–as if the definitions decide what is harmful or not–detracts from the bigger picture. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/13 "2006-02-02T20:47:00Z")
I don’t understand the desire to change the common meaning of words. If we, among ourselves, decide that a carrot will be called a cabbage, that’s fine for us, but what happens when we talk to someone else? Racism is a form of bigotry-- ie, someone who is racist is a racial bigot. A Catholic who disparages non-Catholics is a religious bigot. In short, racism is a subset of bigotry. From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > [Bigot](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot) > > One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ > [@](#): > > [Racism](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racist) > > 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. > 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. We may not like a particular definition, but words are only place-holders, and in order to communicate effectively, we have to have some common understanding of what particular words mean. If we want to delineate between different forms or degrees of racism, that makes sense. We may speak of “soft racism” or “hard racism”, but discrimation based on race, no matter what the degree, is racism. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/14 "2006-02-02T21:19:56Z")
I’ve always used the following guideline: **Prejudice** - holding preconcieved, stereotypical notions about another race, culture or ethnic group. This can be “good” or “bad” stereotypes. “Black ppl can dance well”, “White men can’t jump”, “Asians are good at math”, “Jews are cheap”, etc. EVERYBODY is prejudiced in some for or another. It’s not always a terrible thing. It’s just a human condition. **Bigotry** - An irrational hatred towards another race, culture or ethnic group no no reason other than the fact that they exist and are different from you/yours. “I hate niggers”, “White people are devils”, “We should nuke all those terrorist Arabs!”, etc. Not everyone is a bigot, but plenty of people are bigots but manage to behave politely in public. **Racism** - Actual ACTS against another race, culture or ethnic group for no other reason other than the fact that they belong to that group (or appear to belong). Not hiring that guy because he’s Indian, not renting your apartment to Mexicans, Pulling over the black guy driving a Mercedes only because he’s black, etc. are all examples of racism. Racism requires a specific act. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/15 "2006-02-02T21:44:53Z")
> [@esquimalt](#): > > “I believe contemporary America is still very much in the grips and death thrones of a lot of paralyzing, debilitating, narrow-minded racist ideologies that have permeated public policy and private thought” > > Can you give us some examples of what you mean by this? Sure. When Ray Nagin made that dumb call evoking God wanting New Orleans to be a chocolate city again, there were a lot of people who called him a racist. The statement was extremely racially biased – but at the time I didn’t think Nagin was a racist and for me, at least, the jury’s still out on that. When Rosa Parks’ bus was commemorated at the Henry Ford Musuem, there was a vocal, nasty element on certain internet chat rooms saying how they were glad that old high yellow nigger bitch finally died and cracking jokes about how they preserved the shit stain in her seat when the bus driver asked her to move. When Strom Thurmond’s illegitimate daughter emerged from seclusion in California and revealed her paternity, there were racists who called her a fucking lair and denied her story was true. The beating of that poor mentally handicapped black man in Linden, Texas by those drunken white dudes who then left him unconscious and injured on an anthill overnight – was so obviously a racist hate crime people are STILL denying the victim’s race had anything to do with it, they claim it was his mental retardation. Even those of us with the best intentions aren’t immune to racist thoughts. You know when I’m at my most racist? I don’t mean just bigoted, or prejudiced, or racially biased – I mean racist, those times when I believe the black man is the greatest man, can’t nobody stop a black man, black genetics is supreme over all, let alone some silly ass white man’s, Whitey better look out, etc. Watching heavyweight boxing. Seeing a black heavyweight champion beating up some great white hope on Pay Per View in a roomful of black guys is still my greatest joy. Of course, it hasn’t happened on the heavyweight level with a serious white American contender for years (although I wouldn’t mind seeing [Nicolay Valuev](http://www.heavyweights.co.uk/) get put on his ass.) I have cheered and screamed at the TV things I never would do in mixed racial company. So even I acknowledge when I’m racist. I say racist instead of bigoted because there’s an obvious element of violence in boxing I’m oddly comfortable with and support, and I think violence to ensure supremacy or dominance is a key racist tactic. The racial violence that’s advocated against, say, Mexicans crossing US border in the name of law and order and the civil liberties they deprive is often seen as racist in the eyes of many to prop up the status quo. “Seen as racist in the eyes of many” doesn’t actually prove racism. Key actions and clear words expressing core beliefs prove racism. The rest of the time, its just plain ol’ bigotry, prejudice and discrimination without a racist underpinning. This may be a product of my upbringing and the times I live in. I was only born in 1970. My father was born in '42, my mother in '51. Both of them are far more likely than I to claim someone or something was racist because in the era THEY grew up, you didn’t need a whole lot of “evidence” to figure out who the racists were. But I do believe times have changed and that people are somewhat more knowledgeable now. These days, I’m happier narrowing the scope of racism to focus on its ideology on and identifying those who believe in that ideology as racists. To me, there are other words that SHOULD be used to label other possible racist indicators, behaviors and beliefs. Words like discrimination, xenophobia, ethnocentrism, racial bias, etc. Let’s use them instead of muddling the world with more racists than there really are. Racism is an extreme ideology, which reflects extreme behavior. I concede to **Liberal** that much initial behavior of contemporary racists may be to express their beliefs as a more benign bigotry. But that seeming geniality is a mask; I’ve seen neo-Nazi literature in Atlanta less than a month ago. It’s still out there, as ugly as ever, just in smaller numbers. **you in the face** seems to halfway agree with me: objecting to my making racism such a loaded term while agreeing with me that bigotry and bias are the reasons why discrimintation and hate crimes occur, and rather than just labelling things as racist, we should look at the implications of those indicators. **furt** raises a couple of interesting points, and one of the most troubling is how someone struggling with bigotry and prejudice in a quasi-racist environment can still be called a racist when they may not harbor the extreme beliefs. I agree: to a teenage mind, “If I’m gonna be called that, I might as well BE that!” is a rational reaction. **Kalhoun** is talking about people, be they bigots or racists, who are kidding themselves. I can see why you could call that veiled racism, but most racists have no illusions about the depth of their loathing. /On PREVIEW/ **John Mace.** I don’t think clarifying definitions is ever a problem. Please note that the FIRST definition of racism you posted is the one I pretty much use exclusively. But here’s where I part ways with the dictionary: Interestingly, I don’t see the large, convoluted theories guiding racism as a subset of bigotry, so much as I see bigotry as a significant indicator of the ideology of racism, one of many. The other indicators being prejudice, racial bias and a willingness to resort to discrimination, racial slurs and violence against “lesser” races. **Dorjän:** Pretty much what I’ve always said. I like how you note that racism requires some sort of specific action. I’ll elaborate: it requires an action against the people you hate. Gee, we actually seem to be making progress here. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/16 "2006-02-03T00:16:38Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > “Oooh, you are so intelligent for a black girl.” That’s a racist statement. If your dad said anything remotely like that to me, **furt** , I’d have no qualms considering that a racist statement. No, no. It’s much more on the order of “There was a real nice black salesgirl at the store, and she said XYZ,” to which my raised-post-civil-rights-era self wants to say “what the hell does her race have to do with anything?” Or commenting that “Jerome Bettis sure seems like a freindly, articulate fellow” when I strongly suspect that he wouldn’t have said the same thing about a white guy. The point is, though wholly well-intentioned, comments like that nonetheless do reveal a certain set of unconscious assumptions and predispositions. Some would call those assumptions “racist;” my point (and I think one of the OP’s points) was that jumping to use that term may not be the most constructive thing in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/17 "2006-02-03T01:51:00Z")
See, **furt** gets me. I think a more accurate characterization, barring some other evidence of racial supremacy yet to be seen, is that that comment was just prejudiced. I’d need to see other indicators to tell if that comment was racist. Racial prejudice is MUCH more prevelant in 2006 than actual racism. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/18 "2006-02-03T02:27:37Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > See, **furt** gets me. I think a more accurate characterization, barring some other evidence of racial supremacy yet to be seen, is that that comment was just prejudiced. The more _precise_ way to describe it is prejudice, but only because “prejudice” is a lot more specific than “racist”. No special indicators are necessary for me to consider something to be racist if I’m fairly confident a certain prejudice is related to race. I don’t know why things have to be any more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/19 "2006-02-03T02:56:26Z")
**you with the face.** It doesn’t need to be more complicated. I’m just more comfortable that way. And I admit, sometimes a simple indicator is all you need. She may have given you a look, or expressed it in such a condescending tone, that you know the bitch is a racist. I know. I promise you I have been there. I’ve also been so paranoid in environments where I was the only black guy around that I read into comments and treatment racist motives that simply weren’t there. Lot of prejudice is just ignorance. There’s also the common misunderstanding where white cashiers put your change on the counter, rather than in your extended hand. Lots of black customers take that as an insult, whereas it’s just the way some cashiers have been trained to limit body contact with all customers. Also my barometer for “racism” is a lot higher than many. One racial comment from anyone towards generally won’t put you in my “racist” column unless it’s egregiously so — or you’re trying to insult me by dropping the n-bomb or something similar. So yeah. I’m all for precision. The term “racism” is overused. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616/20 "2006-02-03T02:59:01Z")
I’m going to refer to a [post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7061923&postcount=36) in one of the other racism threads. It pertains to the issue at hand here as well, in my opinion. In essence, recent research found that specific personality factors fed into prejudice indirectly through two constructs that have been reliably linked to prejudice (and specifically racism) previously: right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation. Or maybe it isn’t pertinent. Who knows? (It seems that their is an inverse relationship between the time I take in constructing a post and the degree to which it contributes to a discussion.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-come-to-a-consensus-what-racism-is-and-what-a-racist-believes/342616.md?page=2)